Ok, just a quick note to share this. Please feel free to share your comments.

As some of you know, my adopted (at birth) son recently turned 5 years old. (Yeah!!!!) He is extremely intelligent and tall - he will be a successful basketball lawyer! Anyway...

His mom and I (not his birthparents) adopted him at birth, and have been actively involved in his life. We seperated before he was one, and were divorced before he was one and a half. His mom stayed home with him for the first four years of his life while she did childcare.

About a year ago, she decided to work outside the home, and we placed him in a "quality" childcare center. Within a few months, we started receiving reports of behavior issues - pushing, kicking, spitting, hitting, throwing toys and toddler chairs. After trying to work with the center, we decided to remove him from there. There philosophy of redirection did not agree with our philosophy of consequences of bad choices (instead of time out, he would be able to change activities or play with different toys - which we felt was negative reinforcement of his behavior). To shorten the story, we went through 3 childcare centers in a 10 day span - one even didn't charge us for the 2 days he was there.

Since then we have placed him in a home childcare setting. He had the same issues until we gave his provider authority to take have a "discussion" with him. His mother and I had not had any "talks" with him before until trying to find a way to deal with his childcare behavior. With us, he is respectful and understands the rules and expectations - all without "talks." He has never acted out for us like he did at daycare.

Anyway, after his provider basically showed him who was boss, his behavior improved. His provider was/is able to see the child that we saw when he was at home with us. Just recently, she hired an assistant to help her and to cover for her when she needs to run errands, go to training, etc. Isaac is back to his "bad choice" behavior - but only with the new person. As soon as the original provider returns, he follows the rules and listens again.

So far the new person has been there for 4 days, and we have had 4 days of "holy terror" reports. I guess I am at my wits end because he will be starting school next year, and I don't know how we can tone down his testing behavior. Obviously, every time that he gets a new teacher or class, he can't get a "talking" to by the teacher.

We have tried everything from "talking" to sticker charts to treasure boxes to timeouts to loss of activities to hand stamps. One of the institutional daycares said that they have never seen parents as involved with trying to correct a child's behavior as we were - 2 days later they told us they couldn't keep watching him because of the liability he could be with the other children.

Alright, I guess I will stop writing about this now. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Hey there,

I am curious as to why the 'bad choice' behaviour started a few months after he was placed into day care...do you recall if anything in particular occured at home...or at the day care center that generated this change in his attitude? That maybe be crucial to understanding this and in a 'discussion' getting to the core of this change in behaviour!

I recall my ex's sister had a kid who was a monster from a young age...but he was like that at home, quite destructful and unaccepting of any discipline(they resorted to physical punishement). I recall at the time thinking, hey we are adults and way smarter than the kids so we should be able to out reason/argue/ outsmart them into seeing what is acceptable and what is not and can't be tolerated.....instead of teaching them that violence is the answer.

I guess with your kid I jump to the conclusion, since the activity is when not at home that he is seeking attention, wants and gets one to one due to his behaviour and tests the limits each time a new adult comes in to the picture. I know this must be a worrying time, other kids at school may not be so tolerant of him or he may meet his match when he goes there next year. I am no specialist or even experienced in this respect; I would assume that partly he will learn other behaviours and acceptable ways to interact with time....can either of you as parents spend anytime in the day care facility to help initially with responding to the behaviour...not necessarily giving him the kind of attention he wants(although any extra attention maybe enough to satisfy him) but to challenge him and make him understand that this will impact on his priviliges at home etc etc.

Since he does respond to the right 'discussion' then that needs to be applied by the assist carer and if necessary at school if he doesn't respond before then. Here in the UK there is a tv programme called super nanny who deals with children who are difficult( and I in no way wish to infer that he is or that my earlier 'monster' comment relates) but maybe a little professional advice from a carer who knows a thing or two, might also help arm you and sort this now rather than later.

On the bright side,you mentioned he might be a sucessfull basket ball lawyer in the future...well these kind of traits I think maybe quite necessary to make it... I know, sorry, poor joke.

Cheerio for now...Vincent...x

Oh crap....and yes I meant to add, it sounds like you really are a really grerat father, who cares a tremendous amount and want to do what is right...so don't beat yourself up over this...and don't fall into the trap of giving in to him either for an easy life. I meant to ask since the divorce...how much he sees of you at home, and how involved are you in his daily life.....?

Hello Lew,

the first thing I can think of, because you've already concluded that there's a major problem here, is to set up an appointment with a child psychologist or therapist. Now, I know that they are expensive perhaps, but many health insurance plans already cover some number of visits per year so you might want to take advantage of this.

It's hard to make any sort of judgements here and I don't want to anyway because you and your ex obviously are the best judges.

Just from what you've said makes it sound like there's an issue with perhaps the number of changes made in his life and maybe he's not able to accomodate? But again, someone more skilled and trained at child development and psychology might make a better assessment.

Cheers

Jim

Wow, Lew... this is so out of my realm of experience, I haven't a single idea as to what to suggest...

Jim has some good thoughts... I'm just truly stumped by this one...

All the best from the ever clueless,

Smokey

Ok... since I got that out of my system and had time to pull some more thoughts together, let me give more details. Thank you Vincent and Jim for your comments.

First off, when Isaac's behavior got bad enough at the first childcare place, they called us to pick him up. Even though we picked him up, he was not able to play or do anything special with us - basically just time out until after his nap or restricted activities. But looking back, we think that he may have been having some anxiety issues about us leaving him for so long. He wasn't ever away from both of us for a whole work day. (In fact, when it's my time with him, he has only ever had a babysitter one time - not because he couldn't handle it, but because I couldn't handle it - first time dad thing I guess.)

Anyway, that was our initial thought, then he started this whole challenge authority, boundary pushing thing with the everyone else. Maybe because the early childcare people gave in or let him go too far? His mom and I are very consistent and follow through on our comments. We are not "one more time... one more time" parents. I guess we may be a somewhat strict, but we still allow him to be a kid too.

We have taken him to 2 psychologists. The first said that she would meet with us to talk about our parenting styles. Isaac's issue was because of our parenting, which didn't make sense to us since he was fine at home.

The second one met with all 3 of us and mentioned ADHD based on his constant movement. (He sat between us on the couch and never left the couch, but he did move/fidget alot.) He also said that it was too early to truely diagnose him, and that he didn't want to label him. He just recommended that we educate ourselves as much as possible and be active in the teacher selection process when he starts school.

We also met with the local school district, based on the advice from one of the childcare centers. The public system has some socialization programs that he might be eligible for. He went through his cognitive testing with them already, and made it through with flying colors. They said most kids that they get are behind intellectually, but he is actually further ahead. He was also well behaved for the 30 minutes of his testing, using his manners, following directions, etc. They did not even know why we brought him in. They couldn't believe the behavior we described to them. We will be getting more information from them in the near future (hopefully before year end).

As far as time with each of us, officially he stays with his mom. I have visitation on Tuesday and Thursday evenings and overnight from Friday through Sunday (every other weekend). But right now, due to our schedules and childcare hours, I pick him up almost everyday of the week, then his mom stops by and takes him home on her days.

I actually feel like I am more involved now than I was when I was married. It probably is true since then I was trying to stay away to keep the intimacy down.

Just want to add that I am very blessed in that his mom is very accepting of me. She doesn't necessarily agree with my lifestyle, but she 100% agrees with Isaac needing his father in his life. As the years have passed (the few that they have been ) she has been getting more accepting of me being gay. She even once mentioned trying to get me to meet a gay guy she worked with to go with me clothes shopping. We were best friends in our marriage. We're not back to that point, or even close yet, but, we are united in that Isaac needs both of us. We talk constantly in order to maintain the same expectations and rules in each house, and we try to follow similar routines, especially around bedtime.

My hope and prayer is that he will grow up (after his teenage years - lol) and be as close to us as ever.

Thank you both for your comments and letting me ramble on... again...

-Lew

Sorry Smokey... aparently you were writing your message the same time I was. Thanks for your thought too!

Not a problem, Lew... hope everything works out for you...

And, my bad... Vince (of course and as usual) had great things to share, too... Sorry Vincey!!!!

All the best,

Smokey

Hi Lew,

I've been chewing on this for a couple of days, so I am going to throw my professional opinion into the mix. I see a few things:

1) Obviously, your son's age is important. Five year olds are in a stage of development where they are beginning to recognize that they can have influence over their environment and can "push buttons". They are experiencing for the first time their power as individuals and will use it to their advantage to get what they want. I consider that good news.

2) Your son has gone through some significant changes with the transition from being at home to being in child care. There is sometimes a latent hostility or anger especially when the child has always had free and easy access to Mommy. Now that is not there and there could be an undercurrent of upset around that. Because of the age, a five year old really can't distinguish that for themself so it comes out as aggression and upset. Much of the struggles that he has had so far sounds to me like each time his environment changes, there is a battle to assert his place in that environment (typical pecking order stuff) but also is expressing his upset at all the changes. Five year olds really like and need consistent, orderly and organized existences -that is where they learn stability and routine. When the routine is disrupted is can be very jarring.

3) A "good talking to" is useful for setting him straight on what is appropriate and what is not. At home he appears to be good but that is because he knows his place, what is expected and there is order so he is relaxed and comfortable. When placed in a new situation (new teacher, etc) that order is disturbed and there is resistance to that change. It should ease up over time but it will depend upon his teachers too. When he begins school he may well "act out" until he is put in his place and is clear on the boundaries. This age is notorious for testing behavior! (especially boys)

4) Lastly, I have to laugh when I see what other therapists have come up with as a "diagnosis". We are, after all, human (or humanoid in some cases) and see things with our own worldview. In my humble opinion, I would agree that it is way to early to suggest there is an organic disorder (ADHD for example) and it all strikes me as situational given that this is mainly at school. If it continues at school it would be worth having him observed at school to look for clues which trigger the behavior pattern. He could be having some difficulties fitting in or socializing and it will take some time to sort itself out as he learns what works and what doesn't.

I hope this helps a but -please do not hesitate to drop me a line if you need support.

Cheers,

Jay

Hi Lew,

I would love to get an update from you on how Isaac is doing. It's been about 6 weeks since your original post, and some time has past.

I don't typically give advice, straight way. It's usually more subtle and from my personal life experiences or experiences of those I know. However, I am going to put it out there:

PLEASE DON'T BE QUICK TO LET SOMEONE DIAGNOSE YOUR CHILD

Shortly after the seperation from my former wife and I, our son began acting out at school and with his mom. However, when he was with me, I was not experiencing his poor behaviour. A couple of his teachers decided to meet with us and told us they were convinced he had a learning disability and ADHD. They requested we allow the school to test him. We agreed, but at the same time, we obtained our own Psychologist. Both the school Psychiatrist and our Psychologist did their individual testing. The result: No Learning disability and NO ADHD.

Now that created a whole new problem though. We continued his therapy with our Psychologist, but at the same time, we had daily interactions with his teachers, which translated into consequences at home if his behaviour at school was poor. I would love to say we had immediate, lasting results, but the truth is; We had our good days and bad days. However, over time, the good days began out numbering the bad days.

Like you, my former wife and I believe that each of us is "necessary" to raise our children. Therefore, when the EX calls to say Andrew is misbehaving. I, either, talk to him on the phone, or drive to the house, depending on the offense. I think the united front has been really helpful, as well.

Andrew will be celebrating his 13th birthday in Feb. His grades at school are back up. No, not an A honor roll student like his older brother and sister, but acceptable grades. His behaviour is 110% improved.

What I have learned. Be patient. Keep loving him, no matter what. And like you have said in your forums; be consistent, making your "yes be a yes" and "your no, be a no".

Keep up the good work !!

Time moves on...

At Jeff's prompting (thank you!) I am finally sitting down to share the journey with my son.

As I mentioned above, we were going to take him to the public school system for a behavioral assessment - which basically amounted to noting behavior via us completing paperwork. (Another post for another time, maybe?)

He has been accepted to be part of a small class that meets for 2.5 hours a day, 3 times a week. There he will be in a kindergarten setting with just a few other children. Each child will have different areas that they will be working on - obviously my son's is social development. Basically, they are helping him learn how to interact with the other children, and will help him understand the transitions that must occur in the classroom setting.

Looking back, I think I have failed to mention that we had taken him out of the institutional childcare facilities to a private home based child care provider. The last 2-3 months have been great there. He seems to have made some great improvements.

In order to facilitate the new public school classes, we needed to move him to a provider closer to the school. We decided to move him back to an institution for a trial period. He only goes there on the days he travels to the public school; the other days, he is still with the home childcare provider.

He has been doing this for about 2 weeks and seems to be handling everything well. ...but... now we seem to be getting some of the behavior at home. I think the behavior is age appropriate though (although still stressful to go through). He is trying to lie, staring at you when you ask him to do something, making sarcastic comments or being bossy. Basically, he is trying to find the line of acceptability with us. We are constantly talking in front of him about his day and his choices, trying to show him that we are a united front.

He is changing so much lately - not physically as he did as an infant and toddler, but mentally. It seems like he has become aware of his world. We are able to watch "Ice Age," and we both laugh at the same parts! He is trying his hand at knock, knock jokes. He made one up... knock, knock. who's there? I. I who? Isaac (at which he gives a big belly laugh, cuz he cracks himself up! ) He is also noticing street signs and wanting to learn about what they mean - and calling me out on my speed! His writing skills are very good and I am beginning to work on his math skills (1+1, 2+3, etc.) He is already learning to read too. Remember the Dick and Jane books? He has an anthology(is that the right word?) of them and he is starting to read words when he sees them in other places (i.e. off, on, see, the). I don't recall being able to do those things before I was in kindergarten!

He really is a great child! It's amazing the love I have for him, and yet how quickly he can push my buttons. LOL But, I guess that is why he is the kid and I'm the adult, eh?

Anyway... hope this catches you up for a while.

Happy Anniversary (belated!)

-Lew

Hello Lew,

it sure seems that things are improving for you and your son and that is great news!

I had to laugh a little when you talked about him giving you knock knock jokes and working on math skills and being bossy, sarcastic, etc. I say laugh because my own 5 yr old daughter, soon to be 6 in a few months has become more bossy and demanding lately and I do think this is normal development for that age range.

I think they will try to test the limits of their own power, especially with you being the Alpha person in his life (or me with my own daughter). Lately, everything has been a demand for 'do it NOW' (from her). I can tell you it takes every ounce of patience in me to not want to take extreme action in response to those demands.

I've been through this age development twice now already, having two older daughters, so I know that this age of 5-7 are those years when your patience and kindness are greatly tested as they in turn test you and their limits.

Hang in there!

Cheers,

Jim