Hi Guys,

Now I know I have always made my self out to be the token pagan...well agnostic...well ok humanist, ex born again christian here in GF (I believe Smokey and I are good company in that respect!)...but here is an honest question.

Are any of you guys of another faith....? I ask this because I spent three days in the company of the Dalai Lama last week and his entourage of monks and body gaurds etc. Curious bunch to be honest, laugh a lot, answer long questions with short simple answers or parables of sorts. Just wondered do we have any Budhists etc or any one with some experience...knowledge. His Holiness gave me a book at the end of his trip on compassion and a white silk scarf, might be interested in looking at this a little further. Any takers?

Cheerio for now...Vincent....xx

Vincent,

this is an outstanding question!

One thing that I believe is missing from the lives of most or at least many men who identify themselves as being gay is religion. This issue is something that I've been pondering lately.

I personally have gone the stretch also from fundamentalism (although I was merely a participant, I never felt or believed in my heart in the fundamentalists' core of generalized literal interpretation).

While I don't have a large amount of knowledge about Buddhism, I did spend some time trying to understand it a bit while I was working in Taiwan and China.

While many may (or may not?) identify themselves here as Christians, I think we're probably mostly just disconnected, or at the least disenfranchised.

I do hope more people will respond here with their outlook on the subject of religion.

Just my humble opinion.

Cheers.

Jim

Oh and Vincent, I forgot to mention, when I did visit Buddhist temples with a friend of mine who was raised as a Buddhist, I felt very uncomfortable within that setting. Not so much because of the beliefs, but rather the foreignness (hope that's a word) of the rituals.

Just as foreign as the characters used by the Chinese or Japanese, so too are the religions.

Cheers,

Jim

I was raised Roman Catholic, and went to church every Sunday at my Mother's insistance. During the time when I was exploring my sexuality, (from age 12 or so to 17) I was seeking absolution from the parish priest. He started out being nice and mentioned that what I was thinking about and doing was not God's way for me and that I was to resist all homosexual temptations.

He started getting meaner as time went on. He then denied me communion, and I felt like an outcast. My Mom would always grill me as to why I didn't take communion. I lied to get her off my back. I last attended a RC Church when I was 17. This was because the priest told me that since I was unable to be saved, I was not to come to church. We finished that confession with him not giving me penance, but telling me I was going to Hell and could not be saved.

I no longer had a religion.

I had no religion until around age 40, when I decided to look into Wicca, (A pagan religion - but with ties to the ONE God I grew up trying to understand). What drew me to Wicca was the fact that I could practice it alone and even in my own home.

I am still a practicing Wicca, and use my ritual to meditate and speak to The ONE through the Goddess Isis, and the God Ra. They are the conduits to where I can pray to God. I am an Egyptian Eclectic Wiccan. I am accepted fully by the Pagan community here in Saskatoon, and have enjoyed my 'special' contact with the ONE God.

Well.. that's about all. Oh... My partner is Roman Catholic. He would prefer that I come back to the church, but he knows that I cannot. And why would I when I have Wicca which makes me at peace both physically as well as spiritually.

Religion vs. spirituality...that is the question. I too was raised in a very conservative Judeo-Christian family that preached that God created everything and everyone and that it was good and in contrast...homosexuality was a sin! My family for the most part is still involved with Christianity and looks forward to the day that I will return as the Prodical Son. It took me many years to find the balance in my spirituality. I have returned to my ancesteral spiritual roots and have begun study in Celtic Paganism. Like the Wizard...i find that it fits for me. I have many friends, gay and straight that are now Buddist and I had the opportunity to hear the Dalai Lama speak here in Arizona USA in September of 2005. What a man of humility, wisdom and grace. I have and undergraduate degree in Theology and have found that all major religions have at their core a few key elements...one being a connection to a supreme being/s and creation as well as respect for your fellow man. That to me is spirituality!! Let's lay aside specific religious rituals long enough to accept the creator as well as the creation.

Many of you will know by now that I'm a Christian. However, unlike many Christians, I'm not prepared to take it upon myself to consign 'seekers' or practitioners of other faiths to an everlasting fire.

As far as I can see, there are common threads in all religions, weaving a tapestry of faith and connection in the spiritual realm. And I believe that all religions have something worth learning. Some may find their faith best expressed in a specific religion or, conversely, find a structured religion too 'earth-bound' whilst others sample bits of many religions. I believe we're all on a spiritual journey. How we make that connection with The Divine can't matter nearly as much as how that connection affects how we live our lives.

Vincent, I seem to recall that a certain manager was less than enthusiastic about talking religion, though you did think it was an important topic to have for some of the men on the boards here.

Now look, even your discussion on religion is getting more activity than anything else right now. :-)

LOLOL....

Ok David you have me there , yes I think that spiritualism is very important to many men today who are gay, and it is good that the topic can be discussed here without anyone causing offence or point scoring...

I suppose I agree with the Greatcounsel1, intelligent humankind always has seemed to need a faith in a power greater than themselves to explain things...take the burden, help us to cope with all that extra grey matter we have residing in our heads and the resulting anxieties and conflicts. The commonality of all faiths, ancient/primative/conformative, is the issue of a great all powerful creative being and the potential spiritual link between us and ...IT!!

I have experienced the born again sensation/revalation, but you know I view the actual experiences out in the woods when that first 'feeling' occured as more of a needy/ gap filling experience of my psychy...some sort of deep seated emotional and psychological balance. In some respects I miss that element in my life and after 20 years as a cop, watching religious scandal after scandal etc I am such a cynic now.

Yes I think celtic paganism touched something as real and spiritual as judiasm etc etc later on. Yes Indeed I am attracted to an experience that relates to the person, their inner spirituality...and connection to the community, and one which doesn't judge, one that see's me for the man I am...father....gay..etc etc and is accepting of difference not one that tries to induce conformity.

Sigh.....where am I going with this..lol. I have no idea what wiccanism is, or why Budhism is so popular now....or why I still need proof. But I could happily take on board a little peace giving sense of oneness. ( Ok now I think I'm talking crap....does anyone get the sense of what I am saying?)

His Holiness offered you a kata, the white scarf that is a sort of way of saying that he is sincere in all negotiations with you to come. It symbolizes that he has no motives other than good will and peace.
Regarding religion and spirituality, I just “float”. I have little affinity for organized religions of any kind whatsoever. As soon as the first step is taken in that direction, I believe the next or one soon after will be a human foible. I consider myself “floating” and “waiting” while at the same time a part of something that I sense is greater than my abilities to understand. Yet the history of these things and their customs, rituals, and traditions are very interesting to me and I pick and choose as to what I respect or do not.
I do feel that nothing has taken so many lives in history as religions. I would consider nationalism and communism to be religions. Yet, I do not think of myself in the least bit lacking in morality.
After much thought I arrived at this: A person is as spiritual as their ability to empathize with others. Heph

I think this line of discussion is so completely relevant to today's 'hot button' issues.

It's amazing the number of stories that lead the headlines that so completely embrace any and all issues regarding religion or spirituality.

Nothing could be more foreign or repulsive, I think, to gay men than religion. Why?

It's all about inclusiveness. You say mulit-faith and whether we are here in gayfatherhood.com.

You say Buddhism is inclusive eh? Well, I've travelled throughout Asia and the culture there which is dominated there by Buddhism is not at all gay-friendly. It really isn't all that inclusive. If you think it is, what am I missing? What is it that makes it inclusive?

I'm not trying to argue whether Buddhism is or is not welcoming (or demadning conformity) to anyone regardless of, for example, your sexual orientation. In it's pure form, of course it might very well be inclusive or actually not say anything at all about it.

Just as Judaism or Christianity or Islam do not take a position directly on homosexuality (they do on the acts though), it's the people who make up the society and those local congregations who do take a stand.

That in turn, moves and forces the direction of that society's rules and regulations. The 'norms'.

Maybe I've gotten off topic here, but I do appreciate the ability to let off some ideas or thoughts from my head. And this topic just really bothers me lately.

Question,....how do you guys find peace within your chosen faiths?


Cheers.

Jim

Well, I have no religion as I say. That is very freeing. You are not confined by tenets and you don't have to preach anything. You are accountable to yourself and perhaps something...
In the end if something lies beyond I know I will fare well. To not do so would not be harmonius or reasonable. I know the true heart of me. Perhaps, that is what some call faith? I really don't know. I am free. Heph :-)

I'll wade into the water on this one...please note that this is OPINION and not THE TRUTH.

When you look at the definition of faith from a religious perspective : "a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny".

In some religions, the participant is more passive. It is the will of the supreme being that decides your fate. You need forgiveness from the supreme being or you burn in some horrible place. The supreme being is often seen as a stern father figure ready to give you a cosmic spanking. In others, the participant is active and instrumental in shaping their place in the world, the supreme being is benevolent and kind, sometimes seen as a woman. Or of course, there are multiple beings (Ra, Isis, etc.)

It's all made up folks. Religion is all made up. Someone decided who to believe in, came up with a good story and folks believed. Tada! instant religion! There is nothing and I mean nothing that says that any religion is the truth. All religion is, is belief and hope that it all works out in the end. The choice to convert the Roman Empire to Christianity (becoming the Holy Roman Empire) drove other religions underground paving the way for Catholicism, the papacy and all that great European history. It could have gone completely the other way. Religion is a choice, not the truth.

For the record, I am Catholic and have been forever. I went to Catholic school all the way through college. My daughter goes to Catholic school because I wanted her to grow up with a strong moral character. Is Catholicism the truth? No way man. When I go to church with my daughter, I hear things that I don't buy into and I filter them out. I choose what works for me and my life.
Hellfire and brimstone does not work in my life. Those priests who propagated hate and shame demonstrate the way religion can be bent and twisted. The priest from my parish when I was growing up was recently accused of sexually molesting boys. I remember him putting the moves on me. I am sure I knew some of those victims. Talk about mixed messages. My daughters have been raised knowing that religion is not absolute and that no one religion is the RIGHT one. I go to the Church of Myself. I have my traditional beliefs, but it is mixed with Native American theology, a touch of Buddhism with a smattering of Paganism. It works for me. I meditate, I call upon guides, angels and saints when I need them, I use faith when working with clients. I use spiritualism in the classroom. I don't consider myself religious, but I do consider myself spiritual.

By the way, in certain tribes, homosexuality and bisexuality is considered a blessing. That's something that is a helluva lot more empowering than believing you're going to rot in hell!

And if there really is a hell, and I'm going there, I'll bring my killer barbecue sauce.

Okay, I'll shut up now before the rotten tomatoes get thrown.

Cheers,

Jay (Resident Flake and Mystic)

Thanks for your comments Jay, I for one appreciate what you've said and it's given me some food for thought.

Cheers,

Jim

Wow, glad I read the stream. Very relevant to some of the questions running around in my brain as of late. And to think it was all started by the company pagan! So, maybe the "spirit" does work in mysterious ways. Way to go Vincent!

I do have to say that I from time-to-time do personally feel that I am receiving "guidance" from some other realm. It is way beyond coincidence or even intutition.

For instance:
Last night after I went and saw Brokeback Mountain, I drove past the home of a friend who lives near the theater. He is not a "close" friend, and I have not spoken to him or spent time in his company for almost 2 years, but being with him is always interesting and usually involves great conversation.

Anyway, his house was for sale. Now, I've been thinking about him a lot lately, as I drive by his home on a major street frequently. I had already noticed he did not decorate his home for Christmas, something he enjoyed doing, so I was worried perhaps he was sick. But, with the passing of time, it became easier and easier to put off calling him up, as it seemed almost awkward.

So anyway, when I saw the for sale sign, I began thinking about him. I decided I should call him this week. Well, instead of heading home as I had intended, I stopped at a local gay bar. Had a drink and left quickly and headed to another bar. As I was walking towards the bar, I decided to call directory assisstance on my cell phone and get my friend's number. Well, wouldn't you know it, but as I am standing in front of the bar, with his home phone ringing on the other end of my cell phone, my friend walks out of the bar. Coincidence? Naw... I really believe a "spirit guide" led me to him since he had been on my mind for the better part of a month. We hugged and kissed on the cheek. We definitely will be catching up with each other soon!

Anyway, stuff like this happens to me. Too often to brush off. Sometimes I ask for help. Sometimes it comes when I ask, often in ways I don't expect. Enough to give me pause...

David

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world" - Mahatma Gandhi

David, you illustrated something so great here.

Nothing is by accident. There is no such thing as a coincindence. The Universe (insert deity of choice here) always is throwing little hints along the way to help us through.

Everyone and I mean everyone you meet is a contribution to you. Everyone has something for you to "get". How cool that you reconnected with this man. It may be exactly what you both needed at that moment. When you are open to all that is out there, you'd be amazed what happens.

You said it brilliantly:

<<Sometimes it comes when I ask, often in ways I don't expect.>>

What a great lesson! Thanks...you just gave me a boost!

Jay