So, how to start this post.

How about this, read this story: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Catholic-Bishops.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Now, I personally identify myself as a Catholic, only from the perspective having converted, gone through the kool-aid drinking sessions but have since then begun to understand the teachings with regard to homosexuality.

The thing is, and maybe I'm just alone here on this, I feel like I believed something, but then sort of saw some truth that was contrary to the Church's teachings and have since been kicked out (theoretically) because of this issue.

I cannot change which sex I'm attracted to, and the Church agrees as much. There is no obligation to attempt a change (reparative therapy).

Yet, still, although I cannot change or correct that, I'm condemned to live a celibate life which I didn't choose? All because the Church believes that the orientation itself is not wrong, living (acting on) the orientation is what becomes the sin. Not to mention, I'm not supposed to tell anyone except my immediate family?

I just wish somehow I could have a real one on one conversation with one of these Catholic Priests who actually believes this because I'd really like to know how it is that this is all supposed to make me feel more accepting within the Church.

I think though that although the Catholic Church preaches that the ultimate respect is for each individual human BEING, the reality is that the basic majority is what is really cared for, those who are 'normal'.

Jim

OH DEAR GOD ......at a time when the tide is turning politically around the world-(well starting too)- with respect to gay rights; when the Presbyterian church in Ireland has just agreed that despite no change in their positon with respect to active homosexuals, they still have a responsibilty to reach out pastorally to the gay community...what does the Pope tell us ......or... , well read on.

The Pope has spoken of his hopes that shared moral opposition to gay rights and other social progress may help smooth a reunion of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox religions; on a visit to eastern Church leaders in Cyprus, Pope Benedict XVI said he had a “firm hope” that the schism of 1054 could be healed!!!! After over 900 years he hopes their mutual hatred of other human beings...simply for being gay will bring them back together.

Cheerio for now....Vincent..xx

Are you kidding? Where did you read this?

Jim

Hi Jim,

One of the things that's nice about this forum is seeing how differently we all relate relative to our spiritual life. I recently read where a talk was being presented which was titled "Coming out as a sacrament". This really struck a chord with me. Without a spiritual safety net, I know I would have had a much tougher time coming out.

I too am Catholic and I love my faith. The eucharist especially resonates with me, and I hope never to lose that important connection. I've been blest to live in a "hands off" parish. No sign of excommunication for me yet. One thing I try to remember is that the Church is an oooold institution, and as such it changes slowly. It only took 1200 years to go from Moses' "eye for an eye" to Jesus' "turn the other cheek". Acceptance will come, because acceptance is right. Unfortunately, it won't come in our lifetime.

If you get too fed up, you might consider expanding your horizons. If you have a local Metropolitam Community Church (MCC), it can open up a whole new aspect of spirituality for you. I enjoy MCC, and interestingly I'm not at all alone in being bi (religious). It seems that our innate openness to the truth let's gay people enjoy multiple spritual paths. A special bonus for me was meeting my partner at an MCC service.

Hang in there brother. God's on your side! Even if everyone else in the world doesn't know it yet!

hello Paul, thanks for the response.


I think where I come from at the moment (and the original post was almost a year ago, wow!) is that the Christian Church is not at all welcoming to anyone who is homosexual. Yes of course there are some denominations that are (like the MCC) but in general I don't think much has changed. The Anglican Church has begun to splinter apart and actually implode with some US churches aligning with Nigerian and Ugandan Anglican orders who actually proclaim that homosexuals actually have no right to life.

I'm beginning to believe more along the lines of Christopher Hitchens and his recent book "God is not Great", namely that God doesn't actually exist and that religion is really the most dangerous element of humanity.

I wish I could understand how it is that anyone who is gay can also be Christian, I just don't get it. Anyone care to explain?


Jim

I wrote a lengthy piece today in response to this issue but my wirelss connection went down as I tried to post it, and it vanished in to the ether So I post this and will give my personal ideas on it later.
God is Not Homophobic

The following article originally appeared in the Port Huron, Michigan Times Herald as a "Guest Opinion" column.

Some weeks ago you published a story about the local Gay Pride group. As a pastor and counselor of more than 40 years in Port Huron, I have followed with interest TalkBack and letters, which have since appeared, on your editorial page.
Some were positive and supportive, some negative and judgmental. A number of the anti-gay replies used the Bible to try to make a point. These arguments are usually based on three main passages. I feel we have an obligation to approach the Scriptures with literary and historical understanding.
The Genesis 19 passage about Sodom refers to gang rape, but says nothing about homosexuality. As other references to Sodom in the Bible indicate, the sin of Sodom was inhospitality (Luke 10:10). There is no word in the original Hebrew Old Testament text for homosexuality. Another passage often used is from the book of Leviticus, which spells out laws for the nomadic tribe of Levi thousands of years ago. If we follow those rules, we are forbidden to eat bacon, shrimp or cheeseburgers, or to wash and wear shirts or plant a garden with more than one kind of seed.
The third text commonly quoted is from Paul's letter to the Romans, Chapter 1. Here Paul is warning the first century Christians against the contamination of idolatrous pagan template worship, which included both male and female prostitution, common in Greek and Roman cultures. Nowhere in any of these passages is there reference to same-gender love as experienced today. There is no word for homosexuality in New Testament Greek. Paul had no more understanding of homosexuality as we know it today than that the world is round.
To take Biblical references out of context and use them as proof is easy. It was done years ago to prove the right for Christians to own slaves, to persecute Jews and to keep women in inferior positions. In the backwoods of the Kentucky hills, mountain preachers us rattlesnakes to prove their faith (see Mark 16:18). In recent years, the state of Kentucky had to pass a law forbidding this practice. There are test in the Epistles, which forbid a woman from speaking in church, cutting her hair or wearing gold. Except for some cult groups, w do not take this literally today. Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, but he said a lot about divorce.
Studies have shown that one to 10% of the population is born homosexual, as some of us are born left-handed. It is not a choice. It is time for us to take a look at the main message of the Bible, which in the words of Jesus was: "By this shall everyone know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." "Judge not that you be not judged." The final message of the Old Testament from Micah 6:8 is "What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God."
Since the early 1950s I have known outstanding persons in the community who because they were gay were fired from jobs in the industry, business and the professions. Some were unwelcome in churches, a few of them pastors and priests. Worst of all, I have known young people contemplating suicide after being turned out by their families and having nowhere to turn for support. This is 1995. Let's not have any more graceless condemnation of minority groups in our community. It is a matter of civil rights. The local Pride Group has my support. Think of the ironic statement made by Sgt. Len Matlovich a few years ago when he said, "I can receive a medal for killing a man in Vietnam, and get kicked out of the Air Force for loving one."
The Rev. J. Alton Cressman has been a member of the Port Huron clergy since 1949.

Excellent article, Vince! Thanks for the quote! It's a keeper.

Hi All...resident pagan, wanabbe agnostic here!

I....we, have often considered this question because a good deal of internalized homophobia, a significant driving force behind much heterocentric/heterosexist thinking, and the out working as seen in homophobic harssement/bullying etc socially or in the work place is often faith motivated.

My take on things -as a young guy brought up as a lapsed catholic, who was dunked in a big tank of water by the Baptists when I was 18 and then over a few years in the police concluded that I had been taken for a ride-; is that faith and religion, old or new, christian or pagan are just part of the human condition. We may think ourselves as smart as the smartest creatures in the cosmos, however we are so insecure, so very needy of re-assurance that we are special, that we need a 'god' to tell us so, give us our place and guarantee something more and better than the curent existance which comes to an apparently no-negotionable end after roughly 3 score year and ten!!

I sometimes envy those of you with that certainty of faith and involevment in an organised religion and community, however I just don't understand why after all these thousands of years, and the last couple of millenium in particular where there has been largely an absence of divine intervention or visitation; but much death and mayhem trying to prove who's god is the best and biggest diety...that we as relatively smart kids n the block are still hung up on this.

Are we so insecure, actually so innately psycologically and evolutionally weak that we still cannot look to the cosmos and see our place in it, accept why we chose to think otherwise in the past,and realize now the one chance, the one planet the one life we have....and live to the full?

I mean no offence to anyone for whom faith is a given or a struggle, I just wonder how we can still be in this intellectual void...all these faiths, all thinking they are right depending where we are geographically and politically, ignoring the human flawed history of them in the past....and today. Good luck to you.

Cheerio for now....Vincent...xx

Excellent points Vince. In your personal evolution from lapsed Catholic to wanabbe agnostic, I might not be too far behind you!

The article above that you posted is quite good. One thing I've still been unable to understand is, what is the driving force behind the neo-con understanding (homosexuality=sin) when the couple of clobber passages are debunked fairly easily. Think about this for a moment

Why would the major Christian religions continue to hammer against homosexuality, something that really was unknown (or if it was it certainly didn't warrant mention directly as being a 'sin') using a few obscure references as their guiding light? Yet, this same 'Holy' book fully supports slavery, and you could even conclude that Jesus supported it (at least he mentioned it and certainly didn't come out vocally against it). Not that I'm advocating the establishment of slavery in any form!


I think you get my point.....

Vince, a book that I'm reading (and to your point on religion in general today) is "God is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens. The great thing about this book is that he takes on religion as a whole and doesn't exactly focus entirely on Christianity.

On a comical note, I saw this recently on Andrew Sullivan's blog http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/20...peanut-butter-c.html

Basically, it's a creationists explanation of how evolution cannot be true because if you add heat to a jar of peanut butter, life does not erupt or form, therefore evolution is concretely debunked! Wow.

Cheers,

Jim

I would like to speak up on being Catholic and Gay!! I belong to a parish is Montreal where the priests are gay, and 90% of the parishoners are also gay. I go with my children, and I feel so comfortable. During the right of peace, couples kiss, and we feel like a very close knit family. Yes, there are those Catholics who are close minded, but here in Montreal, we are openly Catholic, Gay, and proud of it.

Loving Dad of 3,
Take me to your Parish. I want a kiss too.

The Road to Montreal is very straightforward. The Parish and more await!!

Loving Dad of 3,
Merci for the directions. It saves me from buying a map. "Andre, grab your toys and whatever else you wanna bring, we are going to church, cause daddy is getting a French kiss".

Peanut butter. These people not only vote but pick the republic candidate. I'm still shocked about Kansas years ago banning the teaching of evolution. The effect that this has on Canada is that most of the high school text books we have get published in the USA and the publishing industry often gears their product to the Texas market.

Dado1,
Don't forget the jelly.