OK guys, I am throwing out a topic here that I hope people will respond to. It is something that I personally need some insight into.

As I read people's posts, especially their stories, and especially the stories of some of the people in committed partnerships, I begin to see a difference between my life and the lives of the guys in partnerships.

First, let me say I really admire some of the fathers here that are in partnerships. I view them as positive role models.

Second, let me say I also am a little jealous of them, not because they are in a partnership and I am not, but because they seem so much more comfortable with being gay, and with being "out" to whatever degree they are out.

Personally, I'm not there yet, and I don't know if I ever will be. You see, what probably plays a significant role in my inability to be in a relationship is the fact that I don't want to be gay. I know I AM gay, and I know, after having tried to change it, avoid it, deny it, run from it, for YEARS, that I always will be gay. But I can't seem to accept it.

If I could be "straight" or even hidden back in my closet living the lie in my less-than-happy-in-hind-sight-miserable-marriage I would be. Struggling to not act out sexually, and, undoubtedly, failing. But of course, that had to eventually end. There is no going back, I know that. And I don't REALLY want to go back, but... the last four years of my life have been utterly surreal and I can't believe I am where I am today. And I guess, the problem, is I clearly am NOT moving forward.

One thing I noticed is a lot of guys seem to have found their partner, or a previous partner, BEFORE they ended their marriage. That didn't happen for me. Yes, I had a relationship my wife found out about, but only AFTER I ended it. I ended it because he said he was in love with me and wanted me to leave my wife. I couldn't. I didn't love him. Maybe if I had it would have been different. But he simply was not good partnership material, at least not for me. I decided to try and re-commit to my wife. I did and do still love her, even though most people can't understand why, LOL.

I'm not well adjusted, that's why. I can't get a handle on it. Believe me I have tried. My last therapist told me I was "doing great" and didn't need any more therapy. Well, sure doc... I go through periods like that, but the self doubt always comes back.

A big part of the problem for me, is probably that somehow, religion has just messed me up on being gay. Now, I have found plenty of support from people within the church but it just does not sink in.

And therapy messed me up. Truth be known, I was in a gay partnership before I met my wife. I was 21, he was 36. (I am 44 now) We lived together over two years. But, the relationship was not working so we went to therapy. The therapist looked at us and said "The relationship is not working because my partner was gay, but I was not". So we ended the relationship, but oddly, remained friends (until I married my wife at age 28.) I went into therapy and the therapist "cured" me of being gay. I guess he figured I was young enough to influence and my ex-partner was not - I don't know. Anyway, my former gay partner was even friends with my ex-wife while her and I dated. And yes, my ex-wife knew about my gay "past", I told he on our very first date, no kiddng. She was, at the time, "open minded", something I think she surely regrets today.

When my marriage to my ex-wife ended, I came out to my parents, and they were very supportive. My mother's response was "Well, you have to be who you are". Floored me. I became closer to both of them and realized I had shut myself out of their lives for so long because I feared their rejection. I hugged my father for the first time in 30 years and now I hug him every time I see him. Which of course is fantastic.

So get over it right? Can't. Keeps coming back. The self-doubt. The feeling I am living a sin and bound to end up in hell. Like I said - not well adjusted. I accept being gay intellectually, but I can't accept it emotionally.

Now, the truth be told, who wants to be in a relationship with a guy like me? I mean, really? Who wants to put up with someone who is so emotionally unable to accept that he is, was and always will be gay? Which I know is true. I just don't know how to get it to sink in and become comfortable with it.

David

Trying to live up to my motto:

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world" - Mahatma Gandhi

My friend, I really feel for you. For those of us with a faith background there is so much more for us to wrestle with than the self-image aspect of acceptance of our sexuality.

Whenever my marriage would come to a point of crisis, I would think, "I must preserve this at all costs. Without my marriage I won't be able to stay straight - and that will lead me to hell." I was still using the thinking, “I’m straight because I’ve never had any sexual contact with a man.” It didn’t even occur to me that I was actually already gay. Nooooo, no, no. I was a ‘straight man’ with a ‘problem’.

Eventually, when my marriage was nearing breaking point, I decided that I was going to have to figure myself out. I wasn’t prepared to put my sexuality before my faith, so I had to reconcile the two. It took a while, and it was only after I’d come to terms with it that I was able to say to myself, “I’m gay.” That was a huge step for me. And that was the last barrier that was keeping me in the marriage. We separated and divorced.

There were a number of resources that enabled me to come to that point of reconciliation. A number of them can be found on the Faith Links here on Gay Fatherhood. Others you might check out include:
Reluctant Journey – as I come from an evangelical background I was cynical of ‘liberal’ theology. This website is written by a straight evangelical man and was the first to allow me the freedom to accept that I could be both gay and Christian
Courage – a UK based org, formerly with an ‘ex-gay’ ethos, now supportive
Gay Christian Network – a community similar to GF, some folk much more conservative than others and at all stages of their journey of reconciliation/acceptance (at least three GF members are also GCN members).
Fish Can't Fly – a documentary looking at those who’ve been through ‘ex-gay’ programmes and how they came to accept themselves for who they really are. It’s well worth seeing.

David, please don’t feel isolated. If you like, you can PM me.

Hugs,

James

Hi David,

Firstly, thankyou for being so honest and open about the way you feel,the challenges being gay has presented in your life and the deep felt integrity you have in trying to resolve ...deal with such deeply felt and held opposing personal issues.

I was chatting with a theologian over the holidays and I recall myself saying something to the effect that; if an all powerful omnipotant loving creator is a reality and in the manner that 'his son Christ' seemed to bring to humankind, then I am not sure that necessarily gay men and women should need to beat themselves up over being who they are. Love, and forgiveness and undestanding seem to be powerful themes right wing christians choose to ignore when positioning themselves in this current hierarchial discriminatory arguement. What they used to say about native cultures, women,black people etc(and which of course is now neither acceptable nor tolerable) etc is now used to demonize the gay community. We are all created, part of gods plan... his creation....being gay is a fact of life, a biological certainty, an absolute for a percentage of the population. Ok sure some will argue that is part of the fallen condition but that is part of an arguement that frankly I don't think anyone can in reality discuss with certainty anymore...to me that's between God..the Devil and the rest of the host...whom we haven't heard a great deal from in over 2000 years now( ok that is my cynicism creeping in there...sorry).

I don't believe in god anymore, but surely if there is one then why allow...create... children, worshippers, people that want to love and praise him, but reject them because of the way they have been created...not as beligerant criminals, hatefull child molestors, usurpers of family life but men and women who love life, their partners, children...and if they choose to, their'god'. I know I speak from a position of relative ignorance,but if we want to be burdened by the laws..all the laws of the old testament then there is a hell of a lot else we should be concerned about in the minute details of daily life too. Christ it seemed came to include the lost, the rejected the people that 'religion' demonized. Christ ( not those writing decades/centuries later) did not seem to have issue with a small minority of gods children. The writings in the Bible for me give sense of an early church that anticipated an early second coming, and that all carnal aspects of life were unpopular to the point that those that 'burned' were in the end grudgingly allowed to marry. The church...believers, need to take stock, look at the reality of their faith in the context of the passage of two thousand years and realize that the continual condemnation, denial of love, abuse of power that has resulted is a looming crises and will be judged in due course....not the fact that some belivers are born and created to love in a manner that does not 'naturally' procreate children!!!

I know that being gay is a natural condition for me and those gay men I love and cherish as friends...ex's etc. If there really is a creator, then it will accept believers in that context for the hearts they carry in their lives, the relationships they cherish and the love they share. God, not religious dogma or bigoted interpretive cul de sacs will determine the fate of humankind.

David...we need to love ourselves for the people we are, realize that we are not damaged goods, but men who have such a capacity for love...life..to be the most wonderful parents, friends...sons and brothers,and who can judge that or deny it's value...not another man/academic/closet right wing homophobe!! Life is way to short not to accept the cards we are dealt, so stand up and be counted, as much as anything in your own heart and mind.

I hope this makes sense, it is offered by a guy who turned to god/marriage/etc in the hope that I would not be different from the rest, but realised in time, happily so, that being gay is a my natural position in life and if faith were important to me then I think I might thank god for it.

Cheerio for now...Vincent..xx

David,

I can't believe how close your life experience is to mine! It is almost like looking in a mirror! I will write a reply as soon as I can...

Hang in there!

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David,

I think there are two issues going on within your post, or maybe I could say I see two themes here.

First, that I'll bet in many ways, you were both in love with your (ex) wife and fairly 'comfortable' with the life in general that you had with her and the kids. Like most of the guys here who've gone through a relationship with a wife and then a divorce, with kids, it's enough of a challenge and roller-coaster to deal with all the general issues of a relationship breakup. Add to that the gay issue and you've got a real stash of WMD's.

Second, and this is probably more deep in your core of your being, is the gay issue/dilemma. Remember that we are products of our environment/socialization. As we develop into mature adults, if we do not see or experience positive affirming examples of guys who are gay, then how in the world could we possibly imagine ourselves as 'ok'?! Most of us never experience positive examples of gay men as we grow up, we actually experience the opposite and thus the foundation (I think) for our extreme negative self image as gay men. Add to this, our learned attitudes from Church. I remember distinctly the moment that I read and realized that the Catholic Church called me 'objectively disordered'. Ya know what, the entire text of the Catechism talking about homosexuality says in a nutshell that we're basically FREAKS, but oh, we should still be loved anyway despite that freakishness and we shouldn't be discriminated against because we just happen to be freaks. I'm mentioning this only because I happen to know you are Catholic, as am I.

Remember a key fact in life: Hetero's are not inundated throughout their lives with repetitive messages indicating that there is something wrong with them. Remember that your (ex) wife is not dealing with a) conflicts with her sexuality or b) worrying about whether she did something wrong that ended your marriage.

My prediction is that at some point in the near future, you will find someone to share your life and passion with. These issues that worry you will begin to diminish.

I think that when you finally have a partner to love and to hold when you come home from work, you will begin to accept yourself more and probably at some point no longer feel that intense insecurity about being gay. It'll just be you.


Cheers.


Jim

Hello David,

I'll introduce myself first, my name is Simon and my partner, Phill and I have just welcomed our little girl Alexandra into our lives who we will co-parent her with her mothers ( Sarina and Mary ). I realise this is perhaps exactly the "happy" partnership you feel you will not find or envious of. On finding it myself I have to say as excited as I am with my life and even with all the love and support around I still feel alone sometimes and scared to be honest. I still question my gayness even though I know I am 100% gay. Our world breads doubt in our minds, but we aren't alone. I believe you will find the one. You sound like a charming,loving individual and father and I'm sure one day a loving partner again...

I myself come from a broken 'gay' marraige, however it was my mother who came out when I was 14. I remember it so clearly and recall my mother desperatly trying to stay in a marraige for her children ( I have an older sister ) Her concern was largly for me as I was still attending high school and living at home. All she wanted to do was keep me happy, ironically all I wanted her to be was happy ( my Dad too, of course ). Most things eventually come out in the wash, some stains tend to be more stubborn than others but eventually they will fade. Both my parents now are in loving relationships and are both still with the same partners they left each other for... Christmas times get a bit tricky though. They may be happy in thier own relationships but they rarely speak civily with each other... Ahhh, the joys of family..

I have known I was gay all my life but had constantly and even today still do struggle with my gay identity. Sometimes I feel I need to mask my sexuality, others times flaunt it. Though even when I feel free to flaunt/proud of it it's then that I get the most confused. I don't think there are any easy answers to anything in life. I do know that becoming a Dad with the Man I love is helping me to be a more confidant and rounded person. I feel I have a stronger place to stand..Only time will tell if my own demonds will fade or go away?

The only advice I can offer is stay happy, on bad days I know it sounds a bit trite but I pick a flower or go for a walk. It reminds me that it's all just a little bit bigger than me and it's Ok to be confused, angry and even scared. We're amazing complex creatures..and I believe every emotion is valid.

He is just around the corner David, just be and allow yourself to love you....

Take care
Simon

It is a tought thing to be where you are....I have travelled that road myself and honestl;y did not like it a bit. But now that i ahve been there it was really not as bad as I thought it was at the time. I say all of this knowing that it took me a full decade of my life to be where I am today. I am now 40...divorced...have 2 great kids and am finally comforatable with myself. (for the first time in my life!!!) I do not ever wish to travel that road again but am so lgad that I did.

I also came from a conservative religious background and have now resolved those issues with god...the church...well...they will not be changing anytime soon...but that does not mean that I cannot. So I did...had a chat with god and amazing...he did not have the same view of me as did the church that carried his name...HUM??? Makes you wonder where they came up with the crap that they preach as his word!

I have found a motto that I now live by...in fact so much so that I had it tattooed on my body to remind me everyday (a Japanese symbol).

It is is:
"Study...Master...Govern ones self!"

Good luck,

Darrel

Thanks guys. I have been having a rough weekend with this... with the ex., etc. Reading the last couple of posts lifts my spirits a bit, and helps me remember to keep going forward again.

David

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world" Mahatma Gandhi

My partner and I have 2 Catholic priests and a Anglican Minister, with whom we talk to often. The Anglican hosts our monthly Integrity meetings and we go for coffee with the Catholic priests. They help me to see that at least the people of the church are changing even tho' the organization is not.

Hope this post ends up in the right area...

David,

I can't believe how close your life experience is to mine! It is almost like looking in a mirror! I belong to a group of Anglicans called Integrity.. go figure... I am an Egyptian Eclectic Wiccan, and was born and raised Catholic, but they accept everyone for whatever they are! We have monthly meetings and we pass around a talking stick and refect and say what is on our minds. Everyone listens, and responds if they want to.

the RC's have a similar group, Dignity, tho there is no chapter her in ToonTown... don't know if I would go anyways, I kinda am P.O'd at The RC's still....

I met my partner of 4 years in a normal way... He responded o an ad I placed in the paper. My ad was "looking for a guy, between 30 and 50, who like walks and talks, camping and dancing..."

Lo and behold, I got 3 whole responses! One just wanted sex, another was nice, tho' he seemed a bit strange and the other was my current (Hopefully forever!), partner, Dwight. Strange as it may seem... he was nothing like I advertised for. He was 56 years old, a devout Catholic (used to be a monk!!), and likes going to church suppers.

We went for coffee and decided to give it a try. 4 years later, I am deeply in love with him and cannot imagine my life without him! He is with me during the good times, and he sticks with me during the hard times. And having an uncontrolled bi-polar BF is hard to take. He has told me many times that he is proud of my improvements, (Drug and therapy), that he finds me still attractive -- even tho sometimes, I am more Wicked Witch of the West than The Wizard of 'OZ', hehe

My ex, still thinks of me as being a hero. Accomplishing all that I have since the world I knew fell apart totally in 2000, when I turned 40. She tells my son that I am a great father, (even tho' sometimes, I certainly feel the opposite...), and my son still talks to me! He is 9 now, and this year he will find out about his Dad's BF, and maybe even being gay might come up this year. I want him to know well before he finds out himself and running the risk one of my friends here has... it is just coming up to 1 year that his kids haven't spoken with him....

Getting back to the original posting.. I will never go back to The Roman Catholics, as I am quite happy being Wiccan, where everyone can express their views any way they want. (I am a solitary practitioner, so I only answer to myself!)

Hang in there, eh?

Here is a cartoon I thought the guys would like!

Hi There,

First, I must say, I am really impressed with your openness and honesty. I believe your honesty and talking out your feelings will lead you to the necessary answers for you to come to acceptance and contentment.

I lived about 37 years of my life, hiding the real me. I knew from my teenage years I was attracted to men. However, I came not only from a deeply religious background (Southern Baptist), my family was very clear how they felt about homosexuality, and let's say, "It wasn't positive or supportive". Therefore, I believed something was wrong with the way I felt and I had to overcome it. So overcoming "it" for me was to date lots of girls !

I thought I just had to choose and it was just easier to choose being straight. I did as all my friends did, and I married. It was one of the most cowardly and selfish things I have ever done. The only good thing from the 17 year marriage, were the children. You know, I really can't say that about my former marriage. There were other good things that occurred. I truly believe we are who we are today, because of our life's experiences. However, I will say, that was an experience !!

For 17 years, I struggled with my feelings of homosexuality. I hid in religion, work, volunteering, friends, etc. I tried to keep myself so busy, I didn't have time to deal with it. It was no good ! The one thing holds true for all of us. We can't hide from ourselves !!

Over time as the marriage became increasingly untolerable, I began dating some. It's not something I'm proud of, but it's apart of my past and thank GOD, I've grown. Anyway, I did end up meeting a wonderful man, and after a couple of years of "wonderfulness", he announced he was no longer going to be my "dirty little secret". I lost him. I was so ashamed to think that a person I cared for so much would feel that way. I determined never to let that happen again.

It wasn't long afterwards that my former wife realized that 1 + 1 doesn't = 3, and she confronted me in not the most appropriate way. She, basically, brought our Sunday School Class !!! And as prep work for the conversation, she talked to my family and closest friends, confiding in them in the disguise of "prayer". She was surprised to learn that I was more than prepared for the conversation. I truly believe she thought I would fall to my knees and beg for forgiveness. I moved out that very afternoon. I took nothing but the clothes in my closet.

That cold, sunny, Sunday afternoon was probably one of the most memorable days of my life. It is right up there with the children's births, and adopting my oldest son ! I was free to be the man I was intended to be ! Don't get me wrong....I was totatlly shell shocked at first. My first and foremost concern was for the kids...And let me just say, our children are smarter than we give them credit. I would never say it wasn't hard for them to see the family the knew change at the blink of an eye, but I will say they are very, very resilient. The family we have become is so much happier !! My daughter and son, both, have told me in recent weeks they would love to live with me full time instead of just half the time.

The kids recognized I am still the same man I was before. They recognize I'm still the same dad, but better !! The hours we have talked and shared have been wonderful. I am so glad I didn't continue living in that situation, making my kids think that the marriage their mom and I had, was normal !!!

Is life a bed of roses now? Heck No !! I haven't darkened the door of a church for the last 3 years until Christmas. Since, I have started looking again for a church. I am now looking for an Episcopal Church. The denomination seems to be very gay friendly and I enjoy the liturgy. Do I think God loves me? Yes, but I still struggle with what I thought the Bible said growing up. I still carry the weight of thinking I'm not right with GOD. However, I am taking the steps necessary to deal with it. James mentions in his post a book, Reluctant Journey. I think I may order it. I hope it will clear up some questions.

So, am I altogether whole. Gosh no, it's a lifelong process !! I began journalling after coming out. It's a wonderful outlet. And you know... GF.com is, as well.

David, I support you in your journey, and I know rest of these dads are there for you, as well.

Jeff

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