You know, I've tried to be positive here but I really think I need to call a spade a spade.

To those of you who have a partner right now, bless you, you are lucky and indeed blessed. The Universe or God or whatever has been very kind to you. You've played your cards well.


For you guys who do not have a partner, we need to have a fireside reality check.

Depending on your physical attributes, if you are less than 40 yrs of age you MIGHT have a slim chance of meeting someone who could be interested in you. If you are over 40 and especially if you are not someone who could appear on the cover of Mens Health Magazine, then you are SOL. That's just the way it is guys. Spade is a Spade.

It matters absoltely ZERO whether you might have the best personality under the sun. Personalities matter squat in the grand scheme of things, or at least only after the physical attraction wears off. If you happen ot meet someone interested in you, it's the physical attraction first that matters and only that, nothing else.

Everyone who's ever said that personality matters is only speaking from the perspective of the heterosexual world and from the viewpoint of women. Yes, women care about personalities, men do not. The first, foremost and only thing that gay men care about are looks/attraction. They want sex and are attracted to who they think is attractive.

If you have the look, good for you. You know what I mean. If you don't, well, stay at home and save your money and time. It ain't gonna happen and you will only be frustrated, so just stay home and crawl under the covers, go to sleep and dream your dream in the darkness of your sleep, because in the daylight of reality, it ain't happening.

It's great that we have so many guys who are partnered with other nice guys in committed relationships on this website. Power to you.


The rest of us need to recognize that it is not going to happen.


Jim

HI Jim,

Nope sorry that's not a new years message I can agree with. Dating....and I mean trying to find Mr Right is very hard for any gay man . I have a bunch of friends young, older, strikingly handsome and some well plain as me who are all out there looking. Sex isn't a problem, lots of it and in any variety you could ask for...but something longer lasting...love, well that is another kettle of fish all together.

I met my partner when I was 40, I know of three other friends who met guys with whom they are now partnered when they were...38/39/42. Now none of them hit every branch on the ugly tree when they fell out of it but neither are they stunners in the classical gay sense. AND they are not mid 20's to 30's age bracket either. In fact my dear bud Andy...25, own career, home,car..great looks blah blah blah just cannot find the guy for him, and he whilst he is picky...stunning looks isn't top of his list I can assure you.

Problem is being gay has never been so popular...it's like a fashion thing..AND gay men are worse in one sense than most men in that I think even more so they are always looking over the shoulder of the current guy to see if they missed someone better. Equally we are all very body conscious, see only images of hot guys..younger guys...fit guys, and that's what we want...well, we want that or we want to be that...mmmmhhh!!!!

So no Jim, no matter what your experiences of late have been....staying in the dark is no life to lead...equally neither is one obssessed with having to be with another man to be complete....just be prepared to be surprised what life might throw at you when you go out there to live it to the full not just to find a man. I watched Brokeback Mountain last night, it is a good film, and the messages in the book ring through and shine in the film too. Life is for living and can be...is.. way to short to fail to seize the day..take risks...love even when it may not quite fit where you are at that time in your life. BUT love yourself first...who and what you are....then give that to someone else.

So get out from under the covers guys, get out there, be out and proud and get on with life...whether you are a looker or have the personality...or what ever it is there are guys who will dig you ..no doubt about that...you as much as anyone need to be open to difference too.

Cheerio for now...Vincent..xx

Jim,

Who hurt you so badly? They need to be taken out and flogged.

I must disagree with your assessment of the opportunities for imperfect men over 40 finding a mate. When I came out I was 41 and standing at 5'11-1/2" I weighed over 270 pounds. You got it -- I am fat. I don't use product in my hair (makes me itch) and my hair NEVER stays in place -- always looks a mess. I don't know how to dress fabulously like the guys from Queer Eye. I always felt like I stood out like a sore thumb the few times I went to a gay bar. I don't smoke. I rarely ever drink alcohol. My teeth aren't straight at all.

I do have other attributes -- kind heart, generous, loving, blah blah blah -- all the things that you seem to think matter not in today's gay world. Via online groups, I met a wonderful man 5 years younger than me (does that make me a cradle robber?). He loves me for who I am and I love him. Yes, he too is overweight and not the type of person to be found on the cover of men's health or GQ. To find that kind-hearted, loving men, sometimes you have to turn over a lot of logs or kiss a lot of frogs.

I know relatively few beautiful people in relationships. The vast majority of the LTR couples that I know are just average joe type people with all of their physical attributes being below the gay desireability mark. These are relationships that are enduring many years.

I hope that you come face-to-face with a loving caring person someday soon that will sweep you off your feet.

Erwin Goodwin
Sarasota, FL

From the GF Guidelines/Terms of Service: Guideline #4.We will disagree, and sometimes feel the need to speak man-to-man and to the point. When we do, we will always show respect for one another, with care and compassion as our motivators.

Jim, I believe you and I have had this conversation before. And you probably feel that I am unqualified to speak to this topic, because I'm under forty and partnered, but I'll be honest and shoot from the hip here. You say you call a spade a spade. Well, I can do that too. I respect Vince and Erwin for their kind comments, but I'll be as blunt as you were: Your post is bullshit. It is wallowing and you know it. What's even more upsetting here is that you are telling others to wallow with you.

If you believe what you read and see on Gay.com and Queer as Folk you are going to get depressed. Porn and Showtime and Instinct Magazine are only entertainment. They don't have much to do with the reality. But, come on, the same thing happens in the straight world. Super Model pictures are air brushed, the celebrities get plastic surgery... it isn't real!

I'm talking to a dear friend right now, under forty and beautiful! He and his partner were together for at least six years and his partner broke it off after having an affair with another man. Now he's living on his own, trying to put his life together, missing the man he loves and trying not to cry. So is he better off than you? Youth and beauty are not the assets you claim them to be, especially if the heart is bad. Beauty certainly didn't keep them together.

And this relationship thing is no cake walk either, bro. It takes discipline, devotion, sacrifice and compromise in the worst of times. And you know what, most people who get by on their looks don't have the brains and guts to pull it off.

YOU DO. But you will not if you go into every encounter with the attitude you are showing here. "I'm not beautiful. I'm old." Do you realize that if you don't even say that, people will read it; in your face, in your actions, in your eyes. And you are cursing your own self this way.

I'm sorry, I just feel you need more of a swift kick to the pants than a hug right now, Jim. I don't know you in real life, but I've read enough about you and your situation to say that I care and call you brother. I care too much to sit back and let you spread such an untrue depressing message.

Yes, the gay world is too hooked on looks. The WHOLE world is. But you need to love yourself first, take care of yourself first, have some self-respect before another will respect you for who you are. Erwin is right, most of the men I know in relationships are not cover model boys. Many are overweight and underpaid, but they adore each other and care for each other. The beautiful ones have that weakness-- depending on their looks to get them by. And when looks don't last, they are on to the next trick. Is that the kind of thing you are looking for?

I love you, bro, but don't do this to yourself OR others.

David

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Son of Walt,

Jim,

I do believe that my relationship with my partner is based on far more than physical looks etc. I believe that any man can be just as sensitive as a woman and can easily see deeper than the physical. My partner (me as well) are far from coverboys, but we both hold a deep and loving respect for each other. We show it in little ways, even just spending time together, outside the bedroom. Sex is part of our life, but certainly far from the only or even best part of our relationship.

And guys, I met him when I was 41 and he was 58. We are deeply in love with each other and we thank God every day that there is more than just sex in our relationship.

Also, while the youngins are great to look at... I would not seriously consider any of them for a meaningfull relationship.

Keep your chin up. There is someone for you! Just be yourself and you will find someone.

It's interesting to note that the only responses here to this post are from those who have a partner. Bless you and more power to you.

My post was based on my opinion and my experiences in life. Nothing more, nothing less. However, it seems that with the added evidence from those who have responded, perhaps I AM barking down the correct path.

Thanks guys for the confirmation.

Jim

Well, Jim, I ain't partnered but I'll respond... and I'll follow somewhat along the lines of David here.

Yes, finding a man who is TRULY interested in developing that elusive long term relationship is EXTRAORDINARILY difficult... I'm 47 years old and look every day of it... and, apparently unlike many gay men over 40, I actually PREFER someone within 5 years of my age or so... what the hell do I have in common with a 25 year old? Pretty as they may be? And I have very little in common with most gay men I know... even those who are very much not into the scene... I own no porn, I have no use for drag, I hate gay bars and I certainly don't do the casual sex thing... yuck...

But, perhaps it would be better if I were to explain my dating experiences over the last few years... I've had 28, 498 first dates... either they've lied blatantly about themselves, are self-loathing queers, want to know if it's okay to play on the side, or want to tie the knot on date number two, or any number of other wierd(to me) ideas. I can't tell you how many guys I've dated who throw up barriers that I'm more than willing to work around, but they're not... or there is the very real mindset amongst relationship-minded gay men that, if you find someone who is looking for that elusive, monogamous, ltr, that it should happen immediately... and that is just not the case.

Working backwards, I've had two serious relationships since leaving my marriage... the most recent about killed me because it affected not just me but how well I could help my daughter in paying for college... yet, this was the man that I knew, in the deepest part of my soul, that I would be with for the rest of my life... he was also a dad, I was a father to his son... he walked out one day, devestating me and, I'm sure, his son, whom I loved as my own... Lesson #1 ... take your time...

The first serious relationship I had, after leaving my marriage, was with a guy that, initially, I had no attraction to whatsoever... but he was (and is, still) the sweetest, most giving and loving man I think I've ever met... and the attraction grew immensely because of his loving personality and.. ahem, some skills that are best left unmentioned on our family friendly site... and I gave him the time to make it work.. twice!!!! But, I confess to being guilty of what Vincent has mentioned... I thought someone better was just beyond the horizon. Hindsight being 20/20, I never would have let him go. Yeah, he wasn't the best looking guy in the world, but he offered absolutely everything that I wanted... and, naive me, I thought ALL gay men were looking for that.. how foolish of me... I'm happy to report that he has been going strong with his one and only for well over a year now. He's happy, and I'm happy for him, though we rarely have communication. And, I know that David has no use for gay.com (and neither do I, for that matter), but VERY occasionally you can find a good guy there... heck, that's where my good ex met his mate, and his mate moved from Colorado to be with him... I'm impressed, and just a little jealous... hee hee... Lesson #2 - don't look over your shoulder... but that takes time...

Anyway, I'll also chime in with our founder David and say, you gotta be good with yourself before you can be good with anyone else... a kick in the butt I desperately needed (thank you, bro ) from David. And, if you are not happy with how you look, Jim... well, only you can affect that change... I'm not talking plastic surgery or anything, but perhaps you should work towards presenting yourself in a way that you can take pride in and be happy with... there are very few guys who look like the cover of Men's Health... lord knows I tried for many, many years, and I'm just an average guy, hardly "hot" by anyone's standard... LOL

For myself, Jim, I've done lots of self assessment lately... I am the most undateable man on the face of the planet... I own absolutely nothing, thanks to my own choices, and, of course, my commitment to my daughter... I don't have a house, my car is 15 years old, I don't travel, I haven't bought new clothes in years (I live in jeans), I work two jobs and live in a one room apartment... Yet, I'm optimistic that I'll find a man who will appreciate me and not the trappings... hell, man, I have enough confidence to believe that it's not what I own, but who I am, that will bring me what I want... so, I need to focus on being the best person and father I can be and not worry so damn much about how marketable I am.

I'd also suggest becoming involved in either gay oriented political causes (far less of the "meat market" attitude there, I would hope... and I need to do that myself... sigh), or any other extra-curricular activities, as it were, that don't revolve around gay bars... Hell, man, gay men are everywhere... and perhaps there's more quality in finding one by taking a cooking class, volunteering at a homeless shelter, licking envelopes at the local PFLAG office... just some ideas...

Another thing that you must keep in mind, Jim... one of the reasons that there are so many partnered couples here at GF is because there ARE like-minded men out there... is it a challenge to find them? Yes. Is it impossible? No. I would suggest looking outside of the usual gay venues... but I'm repeating myself....

I remain optimistic myself, Jim... my hope is that I could pass some of that optimism to you...

All the best,

Smokey

Dear Jim and other Dads,

Do not fall into this trap. Life is what you make it. The only thing that each of us controls is our response to the things that happen to us in life. OK so I am in a loving relationship with a man. He also suffers from a major depressive disorder. When he is well, life does seem in fact almost perfect. When he is not...it's freakin hard! I have many good friends both gay and straight who are also a big part of my life.

So how to help you get over this funk that you are in today. Priorities man...the kids, work, goals. What are your trying to accomplish? I know right now you feel life is empty without someone to share it with. Reach out for something positive that you can accomplish on your own. Take up pottery, learn to cook, volunteer. Get a massage once in a while. Take care of yourself.

You are a worthwhile person, my heart went out to you reading your post. It is clear that you are suffering. Don't be so hard on yourself and take care eh! (A little Canadianism to help you smile!)

Sean

Hi all...please allow me to pontificate for a moment...

Jim does raise a good point, one that I did not really get until I saw it firsthand this week. I am on a few other Gay/Bi boards and I was struck by the obvious shallowness of some of the posters. The meat-market mentality is sickening to observe. The topic of discussion was meeting people online and how/when sending a picture is appropriate. Some folks were very clear that if they did not have a picture in the very beginning that they weren't going to bother fostering communication. I realize that everyone has priorities, but how sad. If the prospective buddy isn't attractive you're not going to bother talking to him? What a great loss that could be. It isn't just online either, it occurs everyday, all around us. The bars and clubs are the worst! This is pervasive in all communities, not just the Gay/Bi community. There is a lack of interest in inner beauty and more focus on the outer beauty. While I firmly believe that inner beauty shines through, the focus on looks has devestating potential for our children. Why do you think eating disorders are increasing in our children for example? Its hard enough growing up gay/bi but then being alone just compounds the hurt, hence the high suicide rate in gay teens. The shallowness I've seen in the gay community reinforces that experience for many folks.

There are definitely people out there who have the ability to see the beauty within. It's our job to raise our children with that gift so that nobody ever has to suffer feeling lonely and unhappy (and we'll all hold hands and sing Kumbaya, I know, I know). My father doesn't call me a dirt-worshipping, tree-hugging, bleeding-heart liberal for nothing you know! Just adding some fodder...

Happy weekend!

Jay

Guys,

Thanks sincerely for ALL for your replies.

On an intellectual level, I can certainly sit back and look at my life and society (as I've experienced it) and make judgement calls. In the past couple of weeks, because this subject matter has been central to my thoughts, I have done a little research, thanks to the web.

The topic of gay males and low self-esteem is one written about profusely all over the web, in blogs, articles, etc. Interestingly, it is something identified, along with aging gay males, as something that is a tremendous problem among gay males. The idea that gay males focus solely on looks first is profound. Read a few blogs or online articles from magazines and you'll see it all over the place. The idea is that we need to work on it, to do something about it, but you know what? ..... Not a single person or group has come up with a resolution.

Why? Because there is none.

As my therapist told me this past Friday, he wished he'd had a majic wand and could make things different, but it just isn't possible.

You can take action and do all the positive things that so many people have suggested to improve your chances of finding even a date, but sometimes it just doesn't work.

Tonight, I read an article about a plan that the New York City GLBT community wants to put into place to help improve the self esteem of gay men. Great! Absolutely fantastic. Target audience? Gay men in their 20's. Ok then.

I read an article this week from one of the prominent gay activists regarding Brokeback Mountain. Fantastic article, I almost posted the link to the write-up here on Gay Fatherhood until I read one paragraph where he described going to some parties at gay bars in Salt Lake City Utah, central point of conservatism and radical homophobia. He said that the crowds were some of the best looking men he'd ever seen and so much so, that if you were ugly, you'd actually be considered 'exotic'. Wow.

Last night I had a quick chat online with a friend I know from work who's partnered with an ex-dancer for Madonna. Both guys are absolutely amazingly beautiful. He tells me he's in a quandry because over Christmas, he had sex with two other friends and his partner found out. He asks me what he should do?

Mind you, he's asking this of someone who's not had a single date since his divorce nearly 2 years ago. Yes, not a single date.

My therapist asked me how my friends see me, well, they, I think, see me as someone dependable, like a big brother, good loyal friend. Where does it get me? Nowhere.

Why? Because being loyal, dependable, interesting, loving, kind, intelligent, gets you no-where if you can't get past first base. Without making it past first base, there's no hope for a date or even a relationship. That was pretty stunning to hear that. Especially from my therapist, even telling me that perhaps he'd been far too optimistic for me when we had this discussion over a year ago.

I actually think that if I'd have had 1 date in the last 2 years I probably wouldn't have posted what I initially did, let alone 28 498 first dates.

Thanks for listening.

Jim