I was digging in the old site for oldies but goodies, and this discussion caught my eye. Vincent brought this up almost two years ago, so I have deleted the contact information for the researcher in question, since it is unlikely that he is still working on this topic.

However, I am including excerpts of this thread because it was certainly one interesting discussion that brought a lot of members into the conversation. It's all still very relevant. So feel free to reply and discuss this topic further. Have we seen any changes in our views or in society's in just two years?

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From: MSN
vincebelfast (Original Message) Sent: 2/14/2005 4:42 AM
Hi Guys,

I have always been of the personal opinion that out, honest, positive gay men were the best parents a child could ever possibly have for a whole host of reasons. My own experience and the stories told here in GF.com, have only served to consolidate that position. However just as when straight relations hit the rocks, there are circumstances when being the child of one or more gay parents etc could be a recipe for emotional turmoil.....with long term consequences.

I was contacted recently via a local network by a guy in the States carrying out research regarding the children of gay father's, behavioral adjustment and psychological well being. I could see as I completed the survey (there are two for the father and two for the minor) that it seemed to be looking for signs of, well....behaviour which would be of concern to any parent indicating that coping with having a gay father maybe an issue. I have included the researchers address and email below for anyone wishing to contact him and get involved in this research which is being conducted at Capella University, Minneapolis. I guess the more the merrier, and he is really keen to hear from as many gay men involved in parenting as possible.

I can remember my own fears at the time I left the marital home when my son was 10 that he would suffer as a result and also worried how he would react in time to knowing his Dad was gay. This I am sure is no different in some ways from guys who become parents via adoption/ surrogacy etc when they wonder how their kids will react/deal in time with not having a mother in their lives or with the fact of having gay father(s) and therefore being different from many other kids they will meet.

My experience is that my gorgeous loving son is if anything a more mature, balanced, understanding, humorous and well adjusted guy than might otherwise have been the case. My gay friends treat him with a measure of respect and love because of his situation and his openness to and acceptance of them that makes him genuinely feel....well, mature, valued appreciated etc.

How do we feel that our kids ....young or old have responded within themselves to having gay parents/ role models in their lives? Am I right in my belief that this is a hugely positive influence to their growth and development as young adults...or am I being naive?

Cheerio for now....Vincent...xx

From: MSN BasicNick2 Sent: 2/14/2005 11:42 AM
Hey Vince,

I think being the child of a GOOD father, gay or straight, is the best. I have known many gay men who were excellent, caring, attentive husbands when they were in a straight marriage and were loving dads throughout their child's life. I personally think that being a "mature" gay man (and not some party-boy with issues) with children usually means that the father is extra sensitive the child's needs, fears and healthy growth.

That's why I can't understand that here in the US, in the some states like Florida, committed gay couples can't adopt even though they have a proven track record of being excellent foster parents to HIV-positive children. The kids nobody else wants. California does allow for gay adoptions.

My former wife is a social worker and she used to work for Child Protective Services and it would break your heart if you knew how some children are treated by "straight couples."

I know that loving gay dads can be great dads.

Nick

From: MSN wsnyc Sent: 2/14/2005 4:31 PM

Ahhh....Mr. Vince...you always have such good questions. I echo your feelings about your son, Connor, as my daughter, Hope, soon to be 18, shares all those wonderful qualities. And now, as a young adult, she can further express and explain her true feelings.

Many of you know that Hope is on the Board of Directors of COLAGE, Children of Lesbians and Gays Everywhere. My immediate reaction to the issue Vince raises is that we gave Hope all the love, support, insights and connections to grow up as a well rounded individual. On the surface it seems to be the case. BUT, when I listen to her talk with her peers in COLAGE or local friends in her Gay Straight Alliance at school or even in a public setting, I realize that all was not perfect.

Hope and many COLAGErs acknowledge that they frequently hide some of the problems they encounter, especially in school. This is because they understand OUR issues of discrimination or closets and don't want to add to our problems. They hear "fag" and "queer" and "that's so gay" all the time, and school officials do nothing to stop it. They bottle some of this up inside, just as we do.

Additionally, they know they are different just as we know/knew we are different. Our kids, especially in Middle School/Intermediate School when puberty hits (6th, 7th, 8th grades in the USA) only wish to blend in with their peers. They do not want anything that sets them apart. Of course, this also includes being different by not having cool clothing or having an awful pimple on their faces or having a bad hair day or being too heavy or too short or....well, you get the picture. Having gay parents gives our kids something that sets them apart. They now pick and chose who they tell about their parents when they believe it "safe." Unfortunately, sometimes our kids are outed just as we get outed, and they must deal with the realizations of the bigotry that exists among their peers.

We give our children an over-abundance of love, support and the tools necessary to deal with the outside world. But we cannot walk in their shoes. While we take pride in watching our children mature and incorporate their true selves in the greater world, we don't always know everything they have experienced. Most begin to understand the homophobia that exists around them at an early age and, as we do, learn their ways of coping and/or fighting back.

COLAGErs frequently state they are culturally queer and erotically straight (except for those who are second generation....a discussion that we might wish to have in a separate thread of messages). They see the world through "gay eyes." They are part of the gay community, understanding our language, culture and life experiences. While I personally believe that this is good, it separates them from some of their heterosexually raised friends who cannot understand gay culture or what we've experienced in life.

Lastly, to finally answer Vince's question of is being the child of a gay father good?, I think it is neither good nor bad. It just is. But, many of us have gone through great lengths to become fathers or to have custody of our children. We learn incredible skills of survival and negotiating the various systems that intersect with our lives. We don't lose these skills. We continue to use them as we raise our children.

Our children are among the most wanted kids on earth. It shows!

From: MSN scottyboi311 Sent: 2/14/2005 11:16 PM

I felt a need to get in on this conversation since I have pondered those very things the past few weeks. As most of you know my X drop the bomb that she was moving this summer and taking my kids. Then my oldest said she wouldn't go and my 2 youngest want to go. Legally she can't take them without my consent but I have always said I would do what THEY wanted. If they ever wanted to live with their mother over me I would allow it.

It is weird that I see so many guys let their kids go and become weekend dads with visitation and feel that their $220 a week check is enough. I was NOT content with that and fought for 50% custody and won. NOT joint custody but shared custody.

When my 2 youngest said they wanted to move, reality hit me like a ton of bricks. I never dreamed that they would really ever want to move. The reason? I found out that they have both had harassment at school and felt that a fresh start at a new school where no one knew them would solve their problems.

First with my son. He announced to his class last year during a "life skills exercise" that he showed 'courage' when his dad announced he was gay. During the exercise and the rest of the year it was not a problem but it spread through the school and this year he was in a new class (each grade had 3 classes and each year the student mix in each class is shuffled) and THOSE kids had heard but didn't see it as brave at all. I wound up at the school in conference with his teacher AND the principal over a bullying incident. The kids was counseled and things have been OK but it has still been on the back of my son's mind. Add that to the fact that his best friend's parents have now forbidden their son to play with my son when they found out from my X wife and that all spells discontentment for my son. I have done all I can do to 'fix' the problems but I can only fix what I find out about and he tells me some but most I hear from my X when she calls to scream at me for ruining my kids' lives.

My daughter on the other hand I was totally shocked by. She has tons of friends and they stay at our house. The problem I have found out only this week actually would be a problem even if I was straight but me being gay magnifies the issue. She is a tomboy and plays on the basketball team. She is not very girly. A couple of the boys on the boy's basketball team have nicknamed her "man". She told my X that if she moved with her mom she wanted to not play basketball and wanted to wear girl clothes and for her mom to teach her to wear make-up. I know that this issue is not really about me but her mom fuels the fire BECAUSE of me.

To go back to the original question, I think the kids are better all around in the end and I think gay fathers DO make better parents because most of us have had to fight tooth and nail to get our kids whether it be through the courts from a marriage or through adoption. We have to jump through many hoops to get what we have with our kids. Speaking for my kids, I cherish every moment I have with them because I could lose them tomorrow. I KNOW if my X gets married and really settles in I am going to be at a huge disadvantage because a court in Indiana would see a 'normal' home much better than a gay home. I know better but will a judge? Who's to say?

It is tough seeing my kids fight for survival and I know that other kids go through things due to THEIR circumstances, but for me to know that I am responsible for what my kids go through takes it toll on me. Not that I cannot me who I am, but if I could change things so they would not have to suffer I would.

So that is my take on it.

Scotty

From: rayter Sent: 2/15/2005 1:44 AM

Hello Vincent,
I agree with you re the outcomes of the children having been reared by openly gay fathers. I feel that my two sons have grown up and become very well balanced and mature young men. They appear to be accepting and caring young men. They are both happily married and devoted husbands and fathers. I suppose that I had the same concerns of any parent in the rearing of two boys but I also had the concerns associated with the gay factor and the potential affects on them. They still had the normal boy experiences with times of sleep overs, very involved in sports etc. I had custody of the boys since the older boy was three so they always lived with me. Thanks for the thread. I hope to see a positive outcome with the research.
Take care,
Rayford

From: Tim3275 Sent: 2/15/2005 9:18 AM

Vince , From what I hear children raised solely by Gay men -from "all they can remember "age do very well ... because it's natural to them .
Kids raised in a situation where the Mom is supportive (of dad being gay) and a positive element in their lives Probably have a similar experience.
It's the younger children of those Painful divorces ..where the mother is constantly attempting to Kill the relationship between the gay father & his kids , that causes such loyalty confusion & resentment in SOME kids ,to where they are emotionally tormented .
I feel even though the gay dad is very tuned into his kids ,his parenting effect can be Twisted, Rebuked ,Blocked ,Erased,Stifled & Nullified by the behavior of the left behind bitter X
So basically I'd say the variables of social experiences these kids are exposed to has nothing to do with how good a Parent the Gay Father is ,
But When there IS trouble..it seems it is blamed on they gay father for being gay .
I wonder if a study has been done on how well kids fair in a str8 - 2 parent house or a single str8 mom or dad home - where the other parent is a part of their life ...or even not ..or kids who are fostered ... or ............................................................
Bottom line is Kids that shown love ,feel loved and taken care of are better off.
Tim

From: MSN vincebelfast Sent: 2/15/2005 5:27 PM

'Our children are amongst the most wanted kids on earth'.....Wayne has said many wise things on these boards but that in it's simplest form says it all I guess.

Reading all that you guys have said so far is so interesting and challenging. We do not walk in our kids shoes and therefore will forever have a blind spot I guess. I/we want them to be happy and fulfilled, protect them from inequalities and certainly not be the author of any misfortune for them. Those of us that have ex's, mothers with issues have already made that rod for ourselves and must always strive to accept that responsibility and endeavour to shield our kids in their youth from that negative potential.

It just seems that despite there being so many potential pitfalls, many still reinforced by the State, politicians, family, media etc that our kids have such a fantastic potential ...yes to see through gay eyes but to grow in the straight world into men and women who know better and who will make a difference.

Someone mentioned 2nd generation?.....are we talking gay kids of gay parents?...thats an interesting one...either by natural parenting or adoption etc. Do any guys here have a child in their care...part of their family that is gay........

Vincent...x

Reply

From: MSN Skylark4383 Sent: 2/15/2005 6:56 PM

I can't see why there should be any distinction between gay parent(s) and straight parent(s). The same interaction of parent to parent, parent to child would obey the same variables. There are traumatic events in both. Straight parents separate or divorce and there is tension that is sensed by the child(ren). If gay partners go their separate ways, then the same tension is there. I think it is a moot point to argue over. But as long as there are the stigma associated with gays by the straight population then there will be the distrust between the two parties involved. I've not seen any study done to answer the question whether or not there is a significant difference between gay parents and straight parents. I wish some enterprising young college student who would wish to do a doctorate thesis would take up the challenge and research the question and have the results put into a public publication so all can educate themselves on this question. Thanks for letting me blabber on about this.

From: MSN UK_Canuck Sent: 2/16/2005 6:24 AM

I've recently started reading "Families Like Mine - Children of Gay Parents Tell it Like it Is" by Abigail Garner, who has a gay dad. A website of the same title has lots of resources that will get you started.
familieslikemine.com

From the book's flyleaf:

Based on eight years of activism, combined with interviews with more than fifty sons and daughters, Families Like Mine debunks the anti-gay myth that these children grow up damaged and confused. At the same time, Garner's book refutes the popular pro-gay sentiment that these children turn out "just like everyone else." In addition to the typical stresses of growing up, the unique pressures these children face are not due to their parents' sexuality, but rather to homophobia and prejudice. Using a rich blend of journalism and memoir, Garner offers empathetic yet unapologetic opinions about the gifts and challenges of being raised in families that are often labeled "controversial."

From: MSN Nicknamescottyboi311 Sent: 2/16/2005 7:56 AM

I read this book and HIGHLY recommend it. And what the leaflet said is exactly true. I read some parts with great sadness as I understood what my kids were experiencing but also saw that in the end the results are not damaging as the religious right wants us to believe.

My partner is reading it now.

Scotty

From: MSN NicknameTaylor1185 Sent: 2/20/2005 9:08 AM

couple good books I've gotten from the public library:

Gay Fathers: Barrett/Robinson published by Jossey Bass

Letters to Our Children: Brimner, edit

From: MSN Dr_Seth_PsyD Sent: 2/21/2005 5:21 PM

Seth Williams, MA, PsyD and gay dad in Minneapolis, MN, USA here.
I have advanced degrees in clinical psychology and marriage and family therapy.
Thought I'd throw in some professional info on the benefits of gay parenting for kids
Current research is almost unanimous in concluding there are no serious deteriments to kids of having gay parents.
They tend to have some differences, although that may be changing. Generally, they have tested more androgynous
(generally considered an advantage in contemporary society) show more social acceptance of self and others, may
have more sexual identity fluidity (particularly of lesbian moms), and have a cultural home in the gay community even when they identify as straight. They do not turn out queer any more often than other kids, but when they do, their coming out is usually easier than it is for other kids.
These research findings are so consistent that many professional organizations have been filing friends of the court briefs in lawsuits all over North America, including psychologists, marriage and family therapists, family physicians, and social workers.
In short, fabulous guys raise fabulous kids.
So enjoy, and don't worry about screwing our kids up - at least not because we are gay, ok?
Frosty hugs from MN,
SSW

From: MSN vincebelfast Sent: 2/22/2005 11:34 AM
Hi Seth,

Lol... I like that...fabulous guys raise fabulous kids...very good summary of the current thinking. I do of course agree, but am a little cautious and conscious for and on my son's behalf that there are hurdles in life that my being gay has erected that otherwise would not be there.

I know he is a better young man for me being honest and him having the opportunity to see with 'gay' eyes. But I also feel that his life is a little different than he might otherwise hoped. There are balances and checks and I trust he has gained more than he has lost or needs to be circumspect about as a young teenager. Funny I could never have dreamed 4-5 years ago that he could have so well adapted...accepted the changes wrought in his life in the way that he has today....so what the hell am I worried about...lol....that's what we as parents do I guess, part of the contract until they fly the nest...and then some more!!!

If he read this he would tell me to wise up...and then hug me...sigh