I'm a new member with two daughters, 13 and 16. Out for four years and officially divorced from the girls Mom for two. Met my partner at church and we moved in together five months ago. Happiness abounds except...

I get to have the girls Thursday through Sunday every other week. This has been a big adjustment for my partner. He feels as if the girls are "invading his space", which is especially difficult on the heels of sharing a space full-time with me.

Now my eldest has called in tears. After a big argument with her mom, she was told to "go live with your Dad since you're so much happier there". I suspect there's some jealousy involved on mom's part given that Maggie and I are so close. After a meeting with Maggie and her mom, I got them to agree to counseling. That said I'm ready for Maggie to move in for as long as she needs. My partner, however, can't handle the adjustment and is ready to move out.

I don't think I could look myself in the mirror if I didn't take my daughter in when she needs me. I suffered a lot of guilt during the dissolution of my marriage associated with the effect of the separation on my girls. At the same time, I have resposibilities to my partner.

As things stand now, my partner may agree to a two week trial visit. I'm hoping he'll commit to that tonight.

Any experiences or insights anyone can share?

Dear Pittpaul,

A partner is just that... a partner who will share life's ups and downs with you.. and, most importantly, share your family.

I assume your partner was fully aware of your being a father to two teenage girls when you began seeing each other. Obviously, he would be aware of that fact when you began living together. I hope that you were very upfront about their importance to your life. And I would hope that he would understand that your girls are part and parcel of you. But I don't get that sense from your post.

Bottom line? Your daughters are the most important and precious gifts that life will ever give you. Love relationships are difficult.. whether you're straight, gay or somewhere in between... children are simple. They just need our love and support (even when they think they don't... hee hee... )

I find your partner's attitude rather less than conducive to any sort of long term commitment. I think you need to examine what you truly want in a relationship and whether this "partner" (and, yes, I use the quotes because I frankly have my doubts about his commitment to you) fulfills those needs.

The girls are "invading his space"... "My partner, however, can't handle the adjustment and is ready to move out."

Now, really, Paul... this is a no brainer. At least to my way of thinking.

My daughter comes first... always...

All the best,

Smokey

Dear Pittpaul,

I'm not sure if there is anything else to say. Smokey seems to have said it all !

I want to support you as a parent ! You have a
responsibility to your children.

I 100% agree with Smokey regarding your need to evaluate your relationshiop with your "partner".

My personal motto on having BFs:

"You love me, you love my children"

If not...they are history !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck and be strong !!!

Dear Friend, Father, and Partner:

It saddens me to read that a partner is giving you any grief over your time and relationship with your daughter. I guess that I was lucky when I met my Randy 5 years ago. Not only was he a great support as I went through the divorce, but he completely understood that my children came first in my life. Before I made the long-term committment to him, we had several different conversations about the fact that my children would always come first and that my children would be the only reason I would consider leaving him (outside of the normal physical abuse, weapons in the house, drug or alcohol abuse, okay I had a list of deal breakers). The point is my kids were my number one, no questions asked, pack up and leave in two seconds, deal breaker.

My kids were 13, 17, and 18 and Randy did not know how to interact with them, but he has slowly learned where he has common interest and they respect each other. No, it wasn't easy to get the kids to that point, but get there, they did.

As I have written this, I also realize that perhaps your partner is scared of how he will be accepted by your children. You need to let him know that you will support him in front of your children. What I said was, "This is my partner and my very best friend. I expect you to be polite and treat him as my best friend; the way you expect me to treat your best friend." This was the same speech I gave them with regard to their mother when we were married. I never let them disrespect her, why would I let them disrespect Randy?

Anyway, I hope this helps. It may not be easy, but your kids are always your kids (even when my youngest has decided not to visit me he is still my kid and I love him).

Erwin
Sarasota, FL

Thanks for your thoughts guys. My real hope is that over the next two weeks, as my daughter lives with us, I can find a way to take care of everyone in my life. In the end, my daughter needs what she needs. My responsibility (and privilege and joy) is to meet those needs.

Maybe there are some "partner-dads" out there who can give me their thoughts. What were your concerns in living with kids? What was diificult for you, and what made things easier?

Thanks again. The support is invaluable.

Hi Pittpaul,

I can understand the dilemma you face, balancing the needs of different people, being the one who loves them both/all and yet feels pressurized almost to make choices, decide who is more important...well it isn't easy.

My son is 17 now, and my lovely partner always knew from the start that I took my role as a father very seriously, that the relationship with my son was paramount...and I love my fella all the more for knowing that and wanting to be part of that shared life. I understand your feelings of guilt etc re the breakdown of your marriage...but we all have to move on, build new lives and relationships.

One thing for sure, there is no way you should feel any guilt about wanting to have your daughter stay with you. Different if she was regularly just using you as an emotional bat to beat up her mom with....but if her relationship with her mother has suffered, and she gets on so well with you, well of course she will want to, and rightly expect to be able to live with you. You may need to re-assure your partner, but he should know if he truely loves and cares for you, how important it is to your life that your children are well...happy and secure. If he can't cope...after you have talked and shared feelings/concerns and discussed options re how to make this work....well then let him be the one to show his true colours. He is the one missing out on having the chance to be a role model in a young persons life, to have that added dimension in his life, many gay guys would kill for.

I hope either way...trial stay over ...or even if he does need to move out for a spell..that you guys can work this out.

Cheerio for now....Vincent...xx

Dear Pittpaul,

I guess, in many respects, I was lucky... my daughter was a very mature 15 year old when my wife and I separated... and I was always out to her, so there were very few issues for me as far as being a gay man.

As a man who was looking for a partner... well, I had less luck. Many men felt that my daughter would get "in the way" of our relationship. I deep sixed those guys real quick.

The relatively successful romantic relationships I have had all understood my responsibility to my daughter. And my true life partner, my Bobby, has crowned himself de facto gay dad number three or four.... I've lost count... (long story there)....

At any rate, my Bobby has accepted from day one that my girl is the most important thing in my life... he has gone out of his way to make himself as available to her as a friend, a parent, care giver as any man could.... I love you, my Bobby Baby... cuz I know you'll read this....

Bobby and I went into this knowing that I was a parent and that he had a responsibility for his elderly and infirm mother. (And he is a remarkably wonderful son... may all our dads here have equally wonderous children!!)

I have learned to accept his devotion (rightly placed!!!) to his mother. As fathers, perhaps we should think about taking better care of our parents.... they took care of us for long enough....

Bottom line is, my partner has always been remarkably supportive of my daughter and my responsibility to her. I daresay that he would think less of me if I would put our relationship before my relationship with her. And I would never try to change things with he and his mother.... they have a relationship of 20 some years that I'm brand new to...

Compromise.... understanding.... that, I think, is key...

And, Pittpaul, your partner seems awfully close to "ultimatum".... well, please... we all know that ultimatums are a losing situation all the way around....

Take Vince's advice... but my advice remains the same... your kid's come first... no brainer...

All the best,

Smokey

Thanks Again, everyone, for the words of support. My daughters visit went well, and I think my partner even forgot to feel uncomfortable once or twice. I expect things will continue in this vein. One day I expect to have patched together an honest to goodness family out of all this drama.

I look forward to participating further in the forum.

Hello PittPaul,

I feel for you in your dilemma. Although I have never reached the “moving-in” part with any potential partners, “dating with children” is always a roller coaster ride! How long did you and your partner know each other before he moved in with you? How long had your partner known your children before he moved in with you? I have one daughter, Kristen, currently 17 years old. Her mother and I have been separated/divorced for 15 ½ years. That means, of course, that my daughter was only 18 months old when I asked her mom for a divorce. From day one, my daughter has been the single most important person to come into my life. From the day she was born, I have proudly worn the title: “Dad.”

“Dating with children” is hard for any single parent, in my opinion, gay, straight, or purple! If we, as single parents, make the decision to date when our children are still minors, the obstacles can be many. (I have met many single parents with young children that DON’T date. They’re usually single moms.) I think each of us has to come up with a set of “rules” that works for us in finding the balance between dating and our young children. Early on I made the decision to keep my dating life separate from my home life until I thought the dating thing looked like it might turn into something long term. Typically this meant not even making an attempt to introduce my daughter to my then current boyfriend for at least 3 or 4 months. I felt this was necessary to keep the “disruptions” to my daughter’s life to a minimum. As a single parent, I felt it would be unfair to introduce my daughter to “the-guy-of-the-month,” as I proceeded through the trials and tribulations of dating simply to have these men disappear abruptly. This particular “rule” has served me well. But it hasn’t eliminated all pain from my daughter’s life.

The first boyfriend that my daughter met was a man that I would have a four-year-long relationship with. I don’t remember how long he and I had been seeing each other before I introduced them, but I’m sure it was in the three to four month range. (This was a number of years ago now.) Things had been going well between this gentleman and myself, and I felt it was time to give it a try. Fast forward through four years, ages 5 to 9 for my daughter. The man never did develop much of a relationship with my daughter. For a variety of reasons we never lived together. And when the relationship came to an abrupt end, my daughter grieved the loss of him nearly as much as I did. We both had to go through the pain of losing the relationship. I remember the times she would ask me: “Will we ever see Bryan again?” She asked the question more than once. It hurt me to have to tell her: “No.” I could see the pain in her eyes. Here was a man she had gotten used to having around, despite the lack of a deep emotional attachment that I could see. And yet, when the end came, there was that awful question and answer. “Will we see him again?” “No.”

Several years passed, and my daughter never met another one of my dates. None of them had lasted more than four months! (Imagine that! Gay male relationships that don’t last more than four months, the jaded man says.) I was grateful not to have had to put my daughter through the meeting and the loss again. Then came James. The magical three or four months passed. It looked to me like this might be going somewhere, and introductions were made. Kristen was 12. James was really good with children. And he genuinely worked on building a relationship with her. He would occasionally take her out shopping or bowling or something. Just the two of them. Things went well for the next six months. Then James stopped calling. No heart-to-heart final conversation with good-byes and tears. Phone calls simply went unreturned. Men can behave so badly at times. It just sort of ended. Kristen was a bit older now, and better able to handle her loss. I believe her age and the fact that their time together had been measured in ‘months’ instead of ‘years’ made things easier for her.

In my dating career I’ve watched all kinds of behavior regarding gay men while dating a father (me).

• There are the men that are not interested in children at all. That’s fine. Best to get that out in the open up front and say good-bye.
• There are men that say they LIKE children and understand that yours will ALWAYS come first. But cancel a date because your baby-sitter was a no-show, or the kid has developed a fever and is throwing up, or any one of a million things that just sort of happen when kids are around, and they whine: “You don’t have enough time for me,” and they cut and run.
• There are men that say they LIKE children, but haven’t a clue what to “do with them” when the child is directly in front of them. They haven’t a clue how to talk to them.
• There are men that say they LIKE children and have always wanted to have their own to raise. They hang around for a few months and are amazed when they hear stories about the day to day life with children. They perhaps have a romanticized fantasy of what life with children would be like, and listening to the Dad’s stories make his head spin. The times you’re late to work because the kid is having a bad hair day and doesn’t want to go to day care. The times you call off work because the kid is sick. The carpooling and play dates and hanging with all those “breeders,” because, lets face it, as a parent we spend a lot of time with other parents. The endless nights of helping the kids with homework. The insane birthday parties we attend. And in the end, while the guy might like the Dad, he can’t imagine jumping into family life and he leaves.

I think the reality for most gay men is that they have lived their adult lives primarily around adults only. Most have lived alone their entire adult lives. Or if they were partnered for a couple of years and lived together, there were STILL only adults around. Most of their adult lives are centered on “I.” What do I want to eat today? Where should I go on vacation? Where should I live? Gay men may have nieces and nephews, but how many of them would take them on vacation for a week, let alone LIVE with them for months?

We gay fathers have spent years around our children. They become a part of us, of our routine of daily living. We have spent years learning to deal with the unexpected, because something unexpected always happens with children. We’ve become adept at adapting quickly to curve balls. We’ve had to learn how to play with our children, talk to our children, spend time with them, and to love them for who they are. Every decision that we make, once they have been born, contains an element of “we,” and the conscious knowledge that the decisions affect ourselves and someone else. We have spent years thinking about “we” and not “I.” We choose where to live based on the quality of school districts we have to choose from. We choose what jobs to take and what hours to work based on the needs of our children. We choose which cars to buy based on size and safety ratings and not speed and “coolness.” We choose vacation spots that have kid stuff first, and maybe adult stuff…if there is a way that we can “get away from the kids” for a small amount of time.

I had to laugh when you said that your partner feels like the girls are “invading his space.” Well, duh! When was the last time any of you fathers had “your own space?” From the day my daughter could walk, I lost all my “own space.” She could follow me wherever I went. Remember when they were two and three and four years old and they followed you into the bathroom to watch you pee or whatever? My daughter, at seventeen, STILL tries to have conversations with me through the closed bathroom door, no matter how many times I’ve yelled back: “I can’t hear you!” I’m sure that “his space” HAS been invaded. Children are messy. At least the ones that come to my house always are. Toys everywhere when they’re young. Books, cell phones, laptop computers, shoes, coats dropped right inside the front door, school projects…man, what a mess! And no matter how many times you tell them: “Do NOT drop your coat right inside the front door,” it’s done everyday after school. We gay dad’s have lived with a child’s lifetime of this stuff. I’m sure you phrased it the properly, PittPaul when you said this is all new to your partner. And I imagine the reality of living with the “chaos” and lack of personal space that comes with the children may be quite different from any romanticized fantasy he might have had of what living with children would be like.

Erwin in Sarasota wrote that perhaps your partner is scared of how he will be accepted by your children. That is certainly one possible dynamic that can occur. There are many others when a new adult is introduced to a preexisting family unit. Does your partner want to be a parent to the children, or just a friend? Have you given your partner the RIGHT to be a parent? Is he permitted to correct the children in your absence? What do the children think of your partner? Are they comfortable with dad sharing a bed with another man?
(I ask this question because “the gay thing” has seldom been an issue in our house. My daughter has known all her life that I am gay. As she grew up, she had age-appropriate knowledge of what that means. During her teen years, however, I’ve not had a boyfriend. She’s never woken up with the knowledge that Dad spent the night with a man in his bed. Several months ago she brought up the subject of sex because some of her girl friends were talking about having sex with their boyfriends. UGH! I hate when we get to the hard topics. I know that at her current age of seventeen, she knows the mechanics of male/female sex. But during that conversation she revealed to me that “thinking” about the mechanics of male/male sex made her feel “weird.”)
Has your partner made attempts at making one-on-one time with each of the girls, without you being around, so that he can begin to establish his own unique relationship with them?

All the current wisdom says that when an adoptive child comes into the home, it typically takes six months to a year for all the family members to come to some sort of balance. And that’s when the two partnered adults have had a stable kid-less relationship for a period of time! Add previous children to a new adult relationship and there are lots of things that have to be sorted out over time. Not months, but probably years. PittPaul, in your original post, you mentioned that you’ve lived together for five months, and with your daughter in crisis (her mother, in essence, threw her daughter out of her home and told her to go live elsewhere) “he can’t handle the adjustment and is ready to bail.” This may be the biggest bump in the road that you and your partner have faced since getting together, but if you stay together for years, I’m sure there will be many, MANY surprises from the children. Smokey said it best: “A partner is just that…a partner who will share life’s ups and downs with you. And most importantly, share your family.” PittPaul, your family is made up of two teenage girls, an ex-wife, and a boyfriend/partner. There are going to be LOTS of ups and downs. Let the drama begin!

Paul

P.S. This Paul lives in Pittsburgh, too!
P.P.S. Sorry guys. Sometimes I get a bit verbose.

Hey Paul,

Wow....so much of what you have said here resonates with me,and is an experience I have had over the past several years. AND...lol...right down to the coat being dumped over the bannister at the front door repeatedly despite my pleas otherwise!!!

I have said before that gay men with kids are a minority within a minority -8% of gay men- and that brings some extra hurdles, but so many happy experiences too and a direction in life where it isn' just about me...my guy, but the family. That experience for me has resulted in some of the best times I could ask for, at home and when on vacation. It has brought me here to gf.com and given me the closest friend in the world apart from my partner.

So, well said Paul....relationships, family...emotional..sexual etc take time and work, we can have our cake and eat it and so can that special guy we find in life...me time and space is there it just takes that extra effort.

Cheerio for now....Vincent...xx

Paul,

reading your dilemma brought back so many memories of when i first came out and was trying to move on with my life the guilt,both of leaving my marriage and kids and being a gay father. even though we go through a lot to assert our new life we have to remember that the kids wont understand why dad is letting this new man come before them and they are your children and need the support that you can give them with this situation after all they have dealt with a lot to accept your new life and will be there until the end with no more judgements so my advice to you would be to work with your partner to accept the situation and if he can wonderful you guys will have a full and happy life if he cant then you need to move on,raise your girls and the right partner will come along i'm sure

WHOA! Believe me, I experienced this with my two boys and my ex-partner. You have to remember you and your kids are a package deal, is it not your space as well?? I would seriously think about this situation. Your kids are your kids, and you have the right to see them whenever you want, and your partner has to be OK with it, dont sacrafice your kids for your partners selfish desires.